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TOPIC TITLE: inclusion in society
Created On 1/27/06 2:06 PM
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Torsalicious613
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1/27/06 2:06 PM
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we need to be included!

atara


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gad
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1/27/06 2:15 PM
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we've been saying that for 2000 years
 
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shosh
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1/27/06 3:05 PM
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Atara,

What do you mean we need to be included? Is this part of a private conversation? I am interested in your perspective.

Shosh
 
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gad
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1/27/06 3:14 PM
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"We need to be included" probably means that a person wants to be accepted without stigmas.

"We've been saying that for 2000 years" means that one's personal suffering is also reflected in the suffering of the Jewish people, who want to be included and together with each other and G-d in the geula shleima.
 
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shosh
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1/28/06 12:16 AM
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Thanks for that explanation. I understand that stereotypes can hurt but after all you are unique and how many people can say that. I don't think being included is all it is cracked up to be. There are tons of nice people out there but most of them are like little children who drift through life without a clue about what life is really all about. Maybe they are lucky to be so innocent and maybe they are not. I think many are really sad inside because they don't have a close connection to G-d and they don't know why. In order to explore these issues it takes a lot of courage because their faith is fragile and if they destroy that faith then they think their whole world will fall apart.

As for me I could be happy the rest of my life sitting on a hillside in the Golan. You don't have to worry about being included when you live in Israel.

Shosh
 
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Torsalicious613
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1/28/06 9:14 PM
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my mom just dissed out my "friends" at college calling them "shvartzes" and saying "i shouldn't be like them". she said "i should wear skirts more often" and although maybe i should and i shouldn't be afraid of being jewish, i don't want to be different than the kids at school and i just want to be included. i don't want to stand out. i mean duh, i should embrace my judaism. but it isn't that easy. it's not so easy being better than everyone else. i mean maybe if i went to a jewish school it would be because i wouldn't actually be better tha anyone else we would all be the same. but i don't fit in that world. i'm shunned by my community. i'm mentally ill. like i said, in the non jewish community, it's not easy being better than everyone else. and in the jewish community i don't fit in. non jewish is easer, but jewish is right. to a certain extent i know my mom is right, but i want to be right too. what should i do?

atara


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Torsalicious613
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p.s. maybe i should live in israel? i tried that for the mentally ill. it's not that much better. i guess life is what you make of it. but, jewish community or not, it's still not easy. that's for sure

atara


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shosh
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1/28/06 10:31 PM
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Atara,

First of all I don't think of you as being mentally ill. You sound like a a bright, likeable young woman. You just lack confidence. I have 2 questions. Why do you think you are better than everyone else in the non-jewish community and why do you think the jewish community shuns you?

I would really like to understand you. Can you be specific about your perceptions? I think you are confused and lonely like a lot of young people. Your situation just needs some special attention.

I really want to help you if I can and be some support for you.

Your friend,

Shosh
 
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gad
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1/29/06 12:32 AM
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"without a clue about what life is really about."

So our job, whether on college campus or wherever we go, is to be proud of our Jewishness and show them what life is about.

And since G-d wants us to do this, he certainly gives us the necessary strength. Because G-d doesn't demand from us more than we can do.
 
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Torsalicious613
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1/29/06 9:43 PM
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thank you, shosh, for your interest, and gad, for your clarity of explanation. gee, why do i think i'm better than my non-jewish friends? because i am jewish, and therefore, there is more expected of me, which makes me "better", at least in my mind. but if i am not delivering on that, there is something wrong with me, no?which makes me worse than my jewish contemporaries. as they move on, i stay stuck, wanting to be included soo badly in the non jewish world and the jewish world as well. but you can't be included in both-- or can you? i'm realizing life is about breaking barriers and stretching stereotypes every day, and that life is about celebrating tiny miracles. maybe once i embrace this way of positive, winning thinking, my defeatist thinking will become obsolete. maybe then, i will be included by my jewish friends and will feel no need to be embraced or accepted by the non jewish world, because i will realize they have their path and way and i have mine, seperate but equal. we need everyone, jew and non-jew to bring moshiach. we all just have to play our part. and feel secure enough with ourselves-- not ignorant-- but secure-- with respect, that we know they can safely and whole heartedly and confidently play their part while we play ours. today in my community, i saw a young non jewish man (from the looks of him) talking to a chassidic rabbi. that almost brought me to tears and warmed my heart. if only we could all get allong that way. just a thought.

atara


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gad
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1/30/06 12:11 AM
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"life is about breaking barriers."
There is a Chassidic expression (I think the Lubavitcher Rebbe says it) "Simcha poreitz geder," which means "happiness breaks through barriers."

"we need everyone, Jew and non-Jew to bring Moshiach"
The prophet says "leovdoi schem echad'" to serve G-d with one shoulder.
You're right. Everyone has their individual function, but in harmony with the rest of the world.

And the happiness stems from knowing that we have the ablility to make G-d happy by bringing about this harmony in creation.

 
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shosh
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1/30/06 12:30 AM
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Atara,

You brought up a very interesting topic; being included in the non-Jewish and Jewish worlds.
Are you asking for inclusion or respect? From what I know of the Christian world the Frum world is very foreign to the average American. I think the only sects that would come close to understanding the Frum culture would be the Amish or Mennonites, etc; people who take their religion very seriously.

You should never feel guilty for not being perfect. Guilt will destroy your spirit. You have a whole life ahead of you and you don't know what plans G-d has for you. In fact you may never know why you are here but there is a reason and I have a feeling that you will touch many people's lives in a positive way.

I guess what you have been trying to say is that you have a problem socially and you are not sure what you are doing that makes you perceive that you are not included. I think you may be feeling this way for a lot of reasons that you have no control over and so it makes it seem overwhelming.

You can't control what society thinks, you can't control what your parents think or what status you have in your community. The only thing you can control is how you think about yourself. I don't think you have to worry about where you stand with G-d because he loves all his children and especially his righteous Jewish children. If you love and respect yourself then people will automatically be drawn to you. I know it is hard to be patient when there is so much of life to be lived but everything will work out in due time.

Shosh
 
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shosh
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1/30/06 1:08 AM
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Gad,

I really like what you say; it is beautiful. But forgive me for being so cynical. Do you really think that it is the Jews responsibility to bring harmony to the world? Isn't that asking a lot? Not only is it asking a lot it is asking the impossible.

There are many Christians who believe that if everyone would just love everybody else then the world could be saved. It isn't going to happen. We have made tremendous advances in technology but human nature has basically stayed the same. It seems that the nature of man is the only thing that doesn't change. The bible is replete with those who struggle with moral issues.

Sometimes I get really confused. Is G-d omnipotent and all powerful or does G-d need our help to make this world a better place for everyone?

I think our job as all human beings is to reach out to someone everyday and do a mitzvah.
If we can do more than one fine and if not, G-d doesn't keep score. This isn't a ball game.
And if Moshiach does not come in our lifetime then we can die knowing that we did the best that we could do.

The struggle. That is what it is really all about but why can't humans get it together???????
Will Science be the answer? And when we are all programmed with the perfect genes or what we think are the perfect genes then we will cease to be humans because there will be no more struggle.

Do you have any answers?

Shosh










 
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Torsalicious613
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1/30/06 12:35 PM
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hmm. i think we will bring moshiach in our lifetimes, it is just a matter of time. us bipolaroids have the potential to bring him sooner i believe because we "see the tohu" more than the many "tikkuns" out there. (look in the chassidus on bipolar section). we just have to believe in ourselves. and like you said, it all comes back to confidence. i went to a friend's engagement party yesterday and it was amazing how many people were drawn to me because of how i put myself together and how i exuded fake (which became real) confidence. as long as you ride the wave out, you are bound to get somewhere. it's just like boogy boarding or body surfing at the beach: in two ways: you have to ride the wave out if you want a good ride and to get to the shore again. and, if you're able to do something i can't do: go under or through a wave, you are able to get even deeper. hopefully someday i can do that at the beach, but i am learning to do that emotionally or socially right about now in my life. i still have a bit of timing issues to work on, but i'm getting the hang of it: the past doesn't matter and the future's up to us. it's amazing how high school seems like so long ago and how unimportant it seems because as the more mature you get, the more you see that little things like how people saw you in high school doesn't matter. the cliques seemed soo important in high school. they are absolved now. the girls seemed so catty. they are married now with children. i seemed like such a loser in high school. now they are the losers (loser is not a bad term in my book, just someone who loses out by not seeing the big picture..). so, if you ride it out, things will change. you just have to hold on and not give up and tell yourself "you will get through this" no matter how dark it gets. (another "water" example: after i gained a lot of weight and had my break, i became very afraid of water. i went with my brother and my dad to splashworld to get over my fear and go on some water slides i once loved. first of all, i was so fat, i couldn't fit in the inner tube and i kept falling out, which was really embarasssing. after a long horrifying and humilliating battle, i finally got in the back of the inner tube my little brother was in the front of. but as we decended into the tunnel i was overcome with fear. darkness. will i lose my mind again? will i go in sane? will the darkness never end and i will be trapped in there, going at harrowing speeds wth water i could not see rushing under me with the risk of slipping and drowning in the dark? my brother was with me, but that was not much consolation. then suddenly, the darkness lifted: a flash of light: i could see again! daylight! the world! the darkness had ended. the tunnel was over. but i only got to the light once i decided to hold on in/to the dark. so my point? water is an avenue. darkness is a means to an end. oh, and i hated the beach and was afraid of the waves for a while, even dunking. i now go to the beach a lot, i swim, dodge/jump the waves, have fun. i still have yet to learn to break through a wave coming in my direction, but the time will come. it's all about overcoming fear. life. it's about overcoming fear and getting to the other side.) there, that's my water analogy. oh and one more. torah is compared to water, right? well, you can drown in torah, like i did in high school, i took it too literally. or you could float. floating is healthy. you can float on the torah. don't squirm or flail or struggle too much, or you will be pulled under. coast on the torah. don't take things too seriously. that is what it was meant for. the torah is the water, it is up to us to make the boats, be the boats, float, or swim. it's up to us. the torah's a guideline. but it is up to us to decide how we are going to use it. its all about pretending. deciding the right thing to be, and becoming what we pretend. coming up with the pretence is the hard part: once you got it, riding it out is easy. you just have to stick to/with it and in time you will see your true self: who you're really meant to be, emerge. g-d does that for you. he just wants you to work for it first, so at the end of your life, you can say you earned it and that your life was truly "yours" and you own(ed) it. nothing comes without work or suffering on the journey. so you may as well enjoy the work/suffering. or it will seem like you will never get there.

atara


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shosh
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1/30/06 6:27 PM
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Atara,

So beautiful you are. Thanks for a totally uplifting message. So wise, yet so young.

All the best,


Shosh
 
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ImaBP
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1/31/06 2:55 PM
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Thank you Atara,
Your words were very inspiring to me. Wisdom coming from the mouths of "babes". Thank you for sharing. Now just ride and trust
that Hashem will let you float on them with no fear. Let Him guide you and let the fear float away.
Ima
 
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Torsalicious613
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i found a great guy on frumster.com. he's from monsey and he's 32. he said he's seen a psych whe he was younger because he had some issues with his family. and he is only 5'8'', which is my height (i really wanted a taller guy) but as we all know beggars can't be choosers, and i guess right now i constitute as a "beggar" romantically, so what's there to lose? like i said he's a great guy. i have had lots of relationships with guys and i have been heartbroken many many times. he's not that bad looking either. so what's my point? even girls who think they are abnormal because they are bipolar like me can get relatively normal guys. a lot of guys on frumster.com and jdate.com have been complimenting me and telling me i'm pretty. that does a lot of good to my confidence. so as far as shidduchim, it is possible to get married. i and adam (that's his name) are not that serious yet, but i'm hoping it will go somewhere, we have a lot in common and he is overall wiser than me because he is 32. he's involved in antidomestic abuse organizations. he also feels his mother was jeallous of him, when he was younger and not so much right now anymore, like me. we see the world in similar ways, although i don't really like his somewhat nasal voice and new york accent. hey, when you're in love, you can overlook certain things, right? he's overall really nice and accepts me for who i am and doesn't expect me to do certain things or act certain ways like other guys do (note, ima..) i thought i'd share this part of my journey, i thought it could inspire some girls, sorry, young women on here who are bipolar and feel like they will never meet someone. obviously, you have to work at it, but if you work hard enough and stick with it, i am convinced that hashem will help take it the rest of the way. i have to go now, but i hope this relationship with adam works out, and that by sharing this, me, a merely young immature, inexperienced bipolar girl, i could perhaps make another one who might be reading this happy, or start to be full of hope again, as i am. sighh.
it's amazing how life works out--all the twists and turns. one could only hope, that in the end, things work out your way pretty much more or less-- and that it gives you something to believe in and to look forward to. no one can predict the future, but the thought is nice at least.

atara


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what the hecka is a signiature?
 
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ernie55B
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2/2/06 10:00 PM
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Hello Shosh!

I found it interesting that you were discussing what might or might not bring Moshiach. I believe that you and ImaBP (and LFH) are the ones who are doing more than the rest of us 'losers' here in chutz le'aretz to bring Moshiach.

If every Jew in America picked themselves up and moved to Israel, I believe this would do more towards that end than everything else you guys described.

HKB"H gave us a gift of Eretz Yisroel, but people in America, myself included, are too comfortable or have two hundred other excuses to care enough about this gift to accept it.

Why should HKB"H bring Moshiach and return everyone to Eretz Yisroel if no one cares about it?

One day Moshiach might come anyway, but the Jews of BP,Flatbush,Monsey,Long Island,Lakewood, etc. will tell him to
go back where he came from.

I envy you Shosh, for having the courage that I don't.

Ernie
P.S. How did your job search go?
 
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Torsalicious613
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2/3/06 5:39 PM
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hey i want to move to israel in the future, don't forget about me!

atara


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Torsalicious613
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2/3/06 5:40 PM
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p.s. married or not preferably married. good shabbos ernie, and all!

atara


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ernie55B
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2/4/06 11:37 PM
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OK Tors,

I won't forget about you. But wanting to is not quite like being there.
Hopefully you will be sending your messages from there, soon!!!!

Ernie
 
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Torsalicious613
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2/5/06 1:01 AM
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hopefully. i want to get married here first though, then move. unless you know anyone already in israel for me..

atara


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Officeguy
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3/3/08 11:56 AM
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Atara, you speak great words, full of beauty and grace. I concur with all the praise everyone has bestowed upon you here. Be strong and positive no matter what!

Ironic too because I grew up at the beach and became frum later in life, so I can relate to your wave/ sea analogies.

Interesting that the primary issues I deal with in my life (41 years old, wife & 4 kids) are touch points which are in this thread, mainly Yiddishkeit, my family, my job and feelings amongst my non-Jewish colleagues and community.

"Life is simple, people complicate things..." is an adage I always like. Through my own BP and its weirdness I try to keep things as simple as possible (not always succeeding). Your approach gives me strength.

Thank you.
 
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