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TOPIC TITLE: With Issues?
Created On 8/30/13 11:23 AM
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MoMo
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8/30/13 11:23 AM
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My psychiatrist believes that part of my depression is because I'm aiming too high. He says that regarding Shidduchim I should look for a girl with similar issues as me -it'll take away the pressure.

Other people tell me that it's not smart to look for a girl with problems.

What do you guys think?
 
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I'mTrying
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8/30/13 1:27 PM
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I hear you. I also hear your psychiatrist.
I'm not sure it has to be one or the other, though.
I mean, I don't know how it'll work for me when/if I decide to start dating again. But I don't know that it has to be about looking for someone with or without mental health issues.
You want someone warm, kind, sensitive and understanding. It does not sound to me like labels are your thing. Does it really matter what issues someone has or doesn't have? Everyone struggles with SOMETHING in this world, and if they don't struggle I would say stay far away from them.
So, as far as aiming high, I say go for it! Aim for someone with special qualities who will appreciate YOU, MoMo, as special as you are. And you can help each other grow in whichever ways you each need.
I know that in the traditional orthodox dating world it IS all about labels and boxes. That is very unfortunate. But there are people out there who don't operate that way. An amazing place to start is endthemadness.org .
 
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MoMo
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Thank you for your response. My therapist says the same thing you're saying. But for some reason I'm scared to date girls that don't have emotional struggles. My reasoning is that I'm defective because of my dysfunction so why would a regular girl want me. Maybe over time I'll become more understanding and won't regard myself as defective. When/if I reach that point I'll be a free man!
 
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gad
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8/30/13 6:07 PM
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It's important to follow a doctor's instructions.

Still, another possibility that you may want to discuss with your doctor, is to consider a shiduch with someone who has challenges (chesroinois) which are different than yours.

Things are often done this way, that people make tradeoffs.

Have a good Shabbos.

 
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MoMo
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8/31/13 10:05 PM
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Quote

Originally posted by: gad
It's important to follow a doctor's instructions.

It's more important to think for yourself.
 
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gad
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8/31/13 10:21 PM
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the torah instructs us to listen to a doctor
 
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Mimi1022
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8/31/13 10:45 PM
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I agree that everyone has "something". If not depression the celiac disease, then breast cancer gene, Crohn's disease, etc.

I think it matters more about how you are functioning than about an on paper diagnosis. I know someone who is an accountant who has schizophrenia, OCD, and an immune disease, and then I know someone who has severe depression on disability. It depends on YOU - not some diagnosis.

Also you are more than a diagnosis, it does not define you. You have unique qualities and having a mental disorder doesn't negate that


Edited: 8/31/13 at 10:50 PM by Mimi1022
 
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MoMo
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Originally posted by: gad
the torah instructs us to listen to a doctor

The Torah commands us to follow a psychiatrists dating advice?!
 
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gad
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8/31/13 11:12 PM
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the torah wants us to follow a doctor's advice.

when a psychiatrist gives instructions, and it affects our health, then the torah wants us to follow it.
 
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MoMo
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8/31/13 11:37 PM
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I don't see it that way. The torah was talking about an oncologist or something like that not a psychiatrist offering advice.. besides his advice is not Torah M'sinai. If it makes sense then you follow it and if it doesn't make sense then you don't follow it. You need to use your own common sense...

That's my opinion.
 
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gad
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"I don't see it that way. The torah was talking about an oncologist or something like that not a psychiatrist offering advice.."
the torah (and gemara brochos 60a) is talking about healing by a doctor. everyone agrees that a psychiatrist is a doctor who heals.


"besides his advice is not Torah M'sinai."
an oncologist's advice is also not torah m'sinai. but the torah still gives him the authority to act as G-d's agent and to heal.

"If it makes sense then you follow it and if it doesn't make sense then you don't follow it. You need to use your own common sense..."
when it comes to mitzvos, even if we don't understand the reason yet, we still do them, and we'll understand later.
same with this.

still, in order to clarify things with the psychiatrist, you can ask him if the advice he just gave to you about dating is important to follow, or if it is just offered as possible advice.
also, you can ask him, as mentioned above, if it can be a good idea to consider a shiduch with a different chisoroin (challenge).
 
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MoMo
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9/1/13 12:27 AM
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Again I don't agree with you.

The way I see it Hashem doesn't expect you to blindly follow the advice of someone just because he has a degree. You have to use the brain you were given to see what makes sense to you...

Also I believe a Psychiatrist is different than a real doctor
So let's agree to disagree.

I still love you!!

Have a ksiva vchasima tova!


Edited: 9/1/13 at 12:32 AM by MoMo
 
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TBear
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9/1/13 12:44 AM
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Edited - sorry for butting in....



Edited: 9/1/13 at 4:46 PM by TBear
 
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gad
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One can ask a doctor who is a close friend.

Or to ask a second opinion; and if the two opinions differ, then to ask a third opinion.

The reason I am stressing all this, is davka because of the mitzva to love and to care.

Kesiva vichasima toivo for a good and sweet year.


Edited: 9/1/13 at 12:46 AM by gad
 
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MoMo
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Gad, I love you dearly but I just don't see things the same way you do.

 
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gad
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I'm confident that as you think about it more, you'll see that even though we have intelligence, we also have an even higher faculty, belief.
 
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MoMo
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I know that you mean no harm but that feels a little condescending. Like that your opinion is superior and that you have confidence that over time I'll get to the level of reaching your conclusion.

Maybe over time you'll reach my conclusion?

Besides why are you making this about belief?
I do in fact believe in God!! I don't however believe that I need to listen to everything a psychiatrist says.
 
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MoMo
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Don't take any of this personal!
I love you!
I see this as a healthy discussion amongst brothers -I hope to guys can handle this...

If you feel hurt key me know and I'll back off
 
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gad
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I don't feel hurt at all. It's a good discussion.

You're right about the way I wrote about belief. Sorry about that.
I realized afterwards, and I was going to edit it, but you responded first.
I should have written that every Jew is a believer, but that with belief one can always go higher.

I brought in the belief thing, because you wrote about the need to go by your intellect.
And I wanted to point out, that sometimes belief supersedes intellect.

As for my feeling that I'm right, I realize that I may be wrong.
But at this point, I feel that my point of view is correct.

But whether you decide to accept it or not (or maybe to accept tbear's viewpoint, which is somewhere in the middle) I still wish you to find a good shiduch this year, and you should have everything good both physically and spiritually.
 
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wishtobehappy
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Sorry for butting in, but I agree with Momo on this one. Doctors have been given permission to heal, but this doesn't mean one has to follow their advice blindly. The fact that they are human beings, with human intellect and emotions, may affect the advice they give in significant ways.

Belief in G-d may supersede intellect, but I don't think that applies to doctors at all. Especially not today's days, when doctors often act out of their own personal interests, and patients need to be their own advocates.

Also, unlike in the past, when most people were ignorant, today we have access to vast amounts of information at our fingertips, and everyone is entitled to make their own decisions regarding their physical and mental health.
 
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MoMo
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9/1/13 9:38 AM
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Thank you Wish!!!!
P.s. how are you doing?
It's good to have your input!!
 
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MoMo
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Originally posted by: Mimi1022
You have unique qualities and having a mental disorder doesn't negate that

I do not have a mental disorder!!!
 
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wishtobehappy
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Thanks for asking Momo. I'm doing okay - going in spirals instead of circles. I just dropped in here mid-orbit, but I guess I need to schedule more frequent stops.

Gad, I forgot to welcome you back in my previous post, but I'm delighted to have you back. Hope all is well. I for one missed your sage advice.
 
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Mimi1022
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I apologize, I thought you had said in your post earlier you had depression.
 
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MoMo
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Originally posted by: Mimi1022
I don't usually like to engage with people- especially on a crazy person website.
 
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gad
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9/1/13 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by: wishtobehappy
Gad, I forgot to welcome you back in my previous post, but I'm delighted to have you back. Hope all is well. I for one missed your sage advice.


Thanks
Kesiva vichasima toivo
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: wishtobehappy
Sorry for butting in, but I agree with Momo on this one. Doctors have been given permission to heal, but this doesn't mean one has to follow their advice blindly. The fact that they are human beings, with human intellect and emotions, may affect the advice they give in significant ways.

Belief in G-d may supersede intellect, but I don't think that applies to doctors at all. Especially not today's days, when doctors often act out of their own personal interests, and patients need to be their own advocates.

Also, unlike in the past, when most people were ignorant, today we have access to vast amounts of information at our fingertips, and everyone is entitled to make their own decisions regarding their physical and mental health.


Here is a link that brings responses from the Lubavitcher rebbe on this topic. (I think that many or even most of the letters may be translations, and are therefore not necessarily the rebbe's exact words.)

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/healthy-in-body-mind-and-spirit-1/05.htm


Edited: 9/1/13 at 11:48 PM by gad
 
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MoMo
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9/1/13 11:49 PM
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Thank you Gad!
I happened not to follow Lubavitch but I respect that you do.
My mesorah happens to be different...

May we all have a Kesiva Vchasima Tova!!!
Gad, keep in posting and thanks for taking an interest!!!!
 
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gad
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I would add as follows.

The rebbe didn't advocate to follow a doctor blindly. On the contrary, he would often advise to ask a second opinion, and if the two doctors disagreed, to ask a third opinion.
In addition to that, he would often give ideas and suggestions, advising the patient to relay these ideas to the doctor.
And there were other instances when he would advise etc.

Nevertheless, the rebbe's attitude seemed to be, that after all is said and done, the Torah gave a doctor permission to heal, and we are supposed to fulfill the doctor's instructions.
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: MoMo
I happened not to follow Lubavitch

So you can ask your rav


Edited: 9/2/13 at 12:03 AM by gad
 
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MoMo
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My Rov doesn't believe that doctors have God given authority.
The Steipler Goan believed that doctors are fallible human beings who don't know everything. He believed that healthy skepticism is a good thing. He would tell people not to put too much faith in doctors. And would often advise people not to follow the doctors opinions..

My Rov believes that if what the psychiatrist says makes sense then you listen to it and if doesn't then you don't listen.


Edited: 9/2/13 at 12:12 AM by MoMo
 
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gad
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Thanks for sharing that.

I would like to share the following story. It doesn't necessarily affect the rabbinical opinions, (which are based on analyzing Torah, and not on stories). Still, there is an inyan of maaseh rav, and a lot can be learned from stories.

Someone I know, let"s call him yankel, was very depressed, to the point that he wasn't willing to do anything at all. He agreed to write a letter to the rebbe, describing his situation.
Yankel related that the rebbe wrote back, and among the things that the rebbe wrote, was 'betach memalei hoiro'ois horoifeh bimiluom' (surely you are fulfilling the doctor's instructions in their entirety)

As Yankee told the story, he went to the psychiatrist and told him that he (Yankel) now has to listen to everything that the psychiatrist instructs.

To make a long story short, according to Yankel, this directive of the rebbe schlepped him out of the "do nothing" mode, and pushed him onto his way to recovery.

The power of forcing oneself to obey a doctor's instructions.
 
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wishtobehappy
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Thanks for the link, Gad.

I'm not one to argue or disagree with someone of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's caliber, and I believe he was a true Tzadik and had divine inspiration.

However, those responses were addressed to particular individuals and aren't necessarily always a rule of thumb. Each situation is unique. They may have been addressed to people who didn't want to seek medical attention due to the mistaken notion that Hashem is the only healer and therefore seeking medical attention was wrong, and the Rebbe had to convince them otherwise.

Or they may have been addressed to those with serious mental or physical conditions, who were irresponsible about taking their meds, or didn't follow doctor's orders, thereby endangering themselves or others.

I don't think that's the case for many people who feel they can't trust their doctor for valid reasons. Besides, doctors have medical knowledge and were given the power to heal, but many lack wisdom and insight, and advice related to shidduchim is not considered medical advice in my opinion. It's a question for a Rav, or a wise person.
 
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gad
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thanks for your comments. you raised good points.
discussion and analysis often help to sort and clarify ideas.

here are my comments (as it seems to me), addressing your points in the order that they were written.

you are correct in what you write that the rebbe's answers to individuals were for those individuals, and not necessarily to others.
however, it seems clear that there were general guidelines that the rebbe seemed to say as general advice. and i think that this principle (listening to a doctor) would be a general guideline; since the rebbe repeated it often to many people, and also he quoted the torah's words (that the torah gives permission to a doctor to heal) as a general source.

the letters in the link i provided (and elsewhere) don't seem to indicate at all, that he was writing to people who believed that it was wrong to seek medical advice.

he may have been writing to people with serious conditions, who didn't take meds etc., but as i recall, he seemed to tell this advice also to people who were not in such extreme circumstances.

as for people who feel they can't trust their doctor for valid reasons, that may be a valid reason to choose another doctor, since it's very important to have a doctor one can trust.
and if one feels that a doctor is clearly lacking wisdom and insight, that too may be a valid reason to choose another doctor, or at least to get another opinion.

i don't think that one can say a blanket statement that advice related to shiduchim is not considered medical advice. i think that it depends on the exact question, the mental status of the person asking, etc.
also, in general certain questions sometimes overlap, so that there may be questions that should be asked to both a rav and a psychiatrist.

wishing you and your family a kesiva vichasima toivo for a good and sweet year.
 
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wishtobehappy
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You really know your stuff well, Gad. You'd make a great lawyer. I give up in defeat.

Personally, though, in the past, when my husband discussed with his Rebbe something my doctor had suggested and asked whether I should or shouldn't listen, he shrugged and winked at me, saying I am capable of being my own doctor. I usually know in my gut what the right thing to do is, but I was so overwhelmed at that point in my life that I didn't have the confidence to trust my own feelings. I regretted it later on. I guess it was just meant to be.

On the other hand, I know other people who asked for similar advice and were told to listen to their doctor. Each individual case is unique and it's hard to draw conclusions, but you do have some strong points. I think we live in a very confusing world these days, and it takes lots of trial and error to find the path that's right for you and what works best for yourself. It's a journey.
 
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Mimi1022
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I thought that a psychiatrist just treats people medically. Maybe someone can explain how it is a doctors domain to give dating advice?
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: wishtobehappy
defeat..


Just the opposite. A good discussion is a victory for everyone, helping to clarify (hopefully correctly) important issues.

Gemar chasima toivo
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: Mimi1022
I thought that a psychiatrist just treats people medically. Maybe someone can explain how it is a doctors domain to give dating advice?


Many psychiatrists give (in addition to prescriptions for medicine, also) psychological advice and therapy.

And psychological advice can be very important in all areas of life, including dating.

Gemar chasima toivo
 
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wishtobehappy
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Thanks for trying to make it more palatable, Gad.

Seriously, other than your having a valid point, I also decided not to pursue it further despite not being in full agreement with you, because I don't see the point of projecting my personal viewpoints onto others. I think everyone needs to make their own decisions.

G'mar Chasima Tova to you too.
 
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star
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hate posting here, but gad, wonder if you read the rebbes biogrophy by mendelson. i was shocked to see the rebbe was put in charge of his brother berels care who was put in an institution due to trauma, either from pogroms or other events. in the end, he was left there and the nazis yemach shemam killed everyone in the institution.
what shocked me was to find out that the Rebbe had a personal connection to a family member with MI. And yet i feel so alone and ignored by him. even the mental health book of letters are all about bitachon and increasing torah umitzvos which is very invalidating to someone with depression. in the end, i gave up trying to feel validated and cared for and not forgotten by the Rebbe and have found my place elsewhere. so sad that i find he had a brother and i feel he abandoned me like he did him. i probably sound like a apikorses but the feelings are true.


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there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
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gad
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I didn't read the book.
I remember hearing that the author had issues.

We don't know the circumstances of that case, so we can't judge.

We do see that the rebbe did so much good for so many people.

Re bitochon, even in general medical issues, doctors see how an optimistic attitude can be beneficial to health.
That's not to blame anyone. Just like in the case of the rebbe's brother, it's not for us to judge people.

May you and your whole family have a Gemar chasima toivo, and may there be only good news.

 
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star
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im trying not to reply, but here it is......what issues? hes not even the author, just had a team under him compiling. he has sources in there. its not a negative book anyways.
just i took this part to heart that effected me in a sad way. for people, yes, maybe for shluchim that did his will, but for me? i dont think so, call me ungrateful.
i wont be convinced til i see the Rebbe in yechidus and he tells me hes not upset at me for all the things i do that hes against, and that he loves me no matter what. i dont believe anything else.


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there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
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gad
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When things are stressful, it's important to try to give oneself the benefit of the doubt.
 
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mouse
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Wow, this is a quick moving thread. Read the last 6 posts or so and still trying to peice it together. Maybe it's just above me. Or maybe it strayed from it's original post too much.

Just wanted to say something about the original post. I have BH been married many years in a stable marriage. We rarely fight (though frustration occurs at time) and we have wonderful children with good Middos (except in school .) Anyhow, did I marry someone with "issues" or "chisronos?" The answer is complicated. First, let me say that my husband is great. Everyone thinks his/her spouse is their better half (unless in midst of divorce.) My husband I think fills in the gaps like a puzzle. Where I may not be too strong, he is super glue holding me together. Where he isn't too strong, I hold him together. He supports me and loves me. He tells me EVERY morning upon waking how much he loves me and how beautiful I am. And I do the same. Not out of habit, but out of gratefulness that we were brought together. Does he have issue or chisronos???? Well, of course he does. Everyone does. It's just whether you choose to fix them or not through therapy or other modes of self improvement. The person who thinks he/she is perfect is either a. a narcissist and/or b. a politician . Only Hashem is perfect. When I married my husband, I knew my husband had Asperger's. But I loved him despite the fact. At times it drives me insane, but truth is he in some ways does better than me. He holds down a full time good job and has friends. (Yes, people with Asperger's can have friends.) I love my husband for who he is. A man who is strong, believes in Hashem, daven b'tzibur daily (soemthing I find amazing,) learns during ALL downtime unless he's helping me or the kids and a very caring person. You need to look at a potential husband or wife and find if they compliment you well. If they fill in the gaps well. And if you can care for them well. My husband doesn't look the same anymore as he used to. He limps from an accident several years ago. But he's still my first and only choice. Because he is him.

I hope this gives you some idea of what to look for in a wife. It's fine, I think if someone has "issues." Considering how many people have issues and don't know about them, you are lucky if you kknow about them upfront.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.

Edited: 9/10/13 at 4:53 AM by mouse
 
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gad
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Wow
 
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HopefulMommy
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That's amazing, munkster! Thanks for sharing.
 
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mouse
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Thanks gad and HM.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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wishtobehappy
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9/10/13 7:51 PM
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Wow. Almost sounds like a fairy tale.
 
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mouse
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9/10/13 10:26 PM
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It's not a fairy tale, but close enough to it. We go through our challenges together so we don't come out on the dark side.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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MoMo
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9/11/13 1:59 AM
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Munkster thanks for sharing all of that.
 
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