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TOPIC TITLE: Living With Myself
Created On 9/8/13 10:44 PM
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MoMo
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9/8/13 10:44 PM
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I messed up today. I was delinquent and had a terrible day.
I am partially at fault. But there are definitely factors beyond my control that contributed. Its definitely not totally my fault.

For the future I will try in therapy to come up with better ways to deal with off days.

I mess up. Ok. I'm human. And I come from a difficult background.
Also, my overall trend is upward. The Yetzer Harah might be trying to get me down and feel hopeless.
It's never hopeless. I still have value.

 
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gad
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9/9/13 12:11 AM
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That's a very good attitude.

Hope to hear good news.
 
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mouse
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9/9/13 12:50 AM
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I'm sorry the day was difficult. I'm glad that you are working on how to deal with "off" days instead of moping about it. You're being proactive. That's a great thing (and hard for me to do.)


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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MoMo
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Good morning,

Oy what's gonna be?
When are things gonna change?
What in the world are we meant to do till things change?
Misery and defeat are my constant companions.

I can't win this battle
I have no energy to fight any more.

I am battle weary. I surrender.
 
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MoMo
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9/9/13 11:02 AM
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I'm done fighting. Things are what they are so now I'm gonna forget everything and go have a good day if God so wills.
Nothing can hold me down forever!!
 
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mouse
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9/9/13 5:41 PM
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MoMo....I'm sorry you feel so down today. I had a bad day too.....brought my kid to her therapist and it was overly obvious that I was stressed out. I really suspect I'm going through a manic episode and don't want anyone to find out. . Hearing things, seeing things....things are just WRONG. I'm hoping it's just due to lack of sleep but I'm really anxious about it right now .


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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MoMo
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9/9/13 8:55 PM
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Oy!! feel better!!
 
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HopefulMommy
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9/9/13 10:26 PM
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Feel better, munkster!
 
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mouse
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Got sleep. Awoke early but got 9 hrs in so not bad. I feel better HM and MoMo...thank you. MoMo...how was the rest of your day?


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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MoMo
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The rest of my day was good!
I am trying to appreciate normal day to day accomplishments like showing up for things and doing small acts of kindness and exercising discipline etc...

Also I am tying to be easy and accepting of myself and others.
Like, does everything need to be so intense? I'm not running for president so maybe I can just chill out a little and not get so caught up in doing everything perfectly...

I can't sleep so I'm wasting time playing a game on my phone...
I should probably try to get some more sleep :-/
 
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mouse
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Sleep is highly over-rated ...glad the rest of the day worked out. Your goals of trying to be more accepting etc. I think are great. You'll get there someday soon I hope.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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keep climbing
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9/10/13 12:15 PM
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I'm having such a hard time living with myself lately. And I'm sure the people in my home are finding it hard, as well.
I just don't feel well. It's sooo hard.....
Is it Yomtov season, hormonal, chemical, my past.......You get the picture......
Daven for me, please.
 
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MoMo
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9/10/13 12:24 PM
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Oy it sounds really difficult!!!!
I will Daven for you.
 
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gad
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9/10/13 12:25 PM
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I said some tehillim for you.

Hope to hear good news.
 
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toy123
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9/10/13 2:06 PM
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Keep climbing I know exactly how you feel. I can't live with myself anymore. So much is going on and yomim tovim`aren't making things easier. I wish Hashem wouldn't make life so hard. You know what I might be able to cope with these things if they come one by one but no Hashem has to send everything at once....


-------------------------
Sometimes you need to run away just to see who will follow you.

Sometimes when I say "I'm okay", I want someone to look me in the eyes, hug me tight and say "I know you are not".

Just because I'm smiling doesn't mean I'm happy.
 
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gad
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9/10/13 2:35 PM
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I said some tehillim for you too, and I gave tzedoko in your and keep climbing's merit.

Hope to hear good news soon.
 
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HopefulMommy
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9/10/13 2:38 PM
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(((Hugs))) Davening for you, Keep Climbing and Toy. Feel better!
 
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gad
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Quote

Originally posted by: MoMo
I will Daven for you.


In the merit of your davening and caring for another, may you also have a Gemar chasima toivo for a good and sweet year.
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: HopefulMommy
(((Hugs))) Davening for you, Keep Climbing and Toy. Feel better!


In the merit of davening and caring for others, may you also have a Gemar chasima toivo for a good and sweet year.
 
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keep climbing
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9/10/13 7:35 PM
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Thanks, everybody,
A little better tonight, b"h. It should continue.....
 
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MoMo
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9/10/13 7:52 PM
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Keep climbing,
What are the thoughts and feelings contributing to the decline?
 
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keep climbing
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I'm feeling very raw and tender--ready to explode.
Very tired of this fight.
Very confused about my relatives who I have seen recently ( and generally avoid)
 
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HopefulMommy
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9/11/13 12:28 PM
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Gad, amein!!

Keep Climbing, glad you're feeling better. Relatives are tough! I also had a major setback when visiting my family, after being stable for several months. I felt so relieved when I got back home. I wish I had some advice for you, but I don't. I'm still looking for a solution, and haven't found one.
 
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MoMo
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9/11/13 1:25 PM
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Over and over almost everyone on this site has big issues with their families.

I once saw an article heading: "Can your family give you depression?"

It seems like they can! If not directly then indirectly.
Family issues seems like the most common thread amongst us.
 
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gad
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I think that although families can be a challenge, there are ways to deal with it.

Sometimes this involves avoidance (maybe to a certain degree), and sometimes it means developing constructive ways of interacting.
 
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MoMo
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9/11/13 3:39 PM
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Gad,
Are you a Rov? It seems like you are used to talking authoritatively. The problem is that I don't always agree with what you say -but you say it as fact!!
 
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MoMo
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I believe that with abusive family members you sometimes need to stand up for yourself. That's what I did based on the advice I was given..
Sometimes you have to be tough.


Edited: 9/11/13 at 4:09 PM by MoMo
 
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MoMo
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I'm being very upfront with you Gad because you seem like you can handle anything but please don't take offense. I think very highly of you!!
 
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gad
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9/11/13 6:47 PM
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Quote

Originally posted by: MoMo
I believe that with abusive family members you sometimes need to stand up for yourself. That's what I did based on the advice I was given..
Sometimes you have to be tough.


Sounds good
 
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keep climbing
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9/11/13 7:16 PM
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I was also offended by your remarks, Gad.
Remember what site this is.
 
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gad
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What offended you?
 
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MoMo
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9/11/13 7:34 PM
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I hope people realize that this type of back and forth might actually be a healthy and necessary thing. We are communicating and working things through.

Do you guys agree?
 
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gad
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9/11/13 7:36 PM
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Yes
 
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wishtobehappy
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9/11/13 8:17 PM
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Just my own two cents:

I doubt Gad is trying to talk authoritatively, or trying to tell people off. I think he just sometimes comes across that way because apparently he is one of those super analytical fellows who mainly operate through logic. He probably deals with his own emotions by intellectualizing them.

I hope that didn't offend you in any way, Gad. I really admire your willingness to accept criticism, and your desire to fine-tune your sensitivity. That requires a lot of inner strength. I, for one, really appreciate your well thought out posts.
 
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MoMo
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9/11/13 8:20 PM
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Gad,
What are your feelings about this conversation?
 
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gad
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i gave a general observation.

it wasn't meant to judge or blame anyone.

and whoever was offended, my apologies
 
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HopefulMommy
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9/11/13 11:08 PM
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I wasn't offended, but just very skeptical. Is it really possible to get to the point where interacting with difficult family members doesn't trigger any symptoms? I feel that I've tried so hard over the years, but wasn't able to get there. Has anyone?
 
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gad
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9/11/13 11:42 PM
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sometimes the only solution is avoidance.

but sometimes interactions with family can be improved, especially with advice from a therapist or a rav or a good friend.

and sometimes interaction with yourself (attitudes, developing ways of looking at things, etc.) can help.

and sometimes a combination of all the above can help.

and sometimes there might be creative, out of the box solutions.
 
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keep climbing
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If you knew how much I've davened and pleaded with Hashem to help me forgive and forget, you wouldn't be so callous about this.
I've shed oceans of tears and eaten myself up completely because of my inability to move on.
I have to accept that this is an illness and it's not in my control.
Otherwise I feel guilty and confused and that spells disaster for my mental health.
How about some empathy for the sufferers?
 
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MoMo
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Wow I didn't realize that you tried so hard!
I never tried too hard to forgive because I don't feel that I should forgive!
If someone chops off your arms and legs and doesn't even acknowledge what they did would you expect yourself to forgive them? My family left me an emotional cripple!!

I don't care if it was on purpose or mistake you can be melamed zchus on Saddam Huesein too. -He didn't know better blah blah blah... at the end of the day he was a brutal dictator and so were my parents. Do they even deserve forgiveness?

I will not white-wash what was done to me as tempting as it is. Its very hard to come to terms with the fact that the people who were supposed to love you unconditionally and show you how valuable you are and the people who were supposed to nurture your heart and spirit actually crushed you.

There is no excuse for the emotional brutality inflicted on me!!
And NO I won't forgive unless they acknowledge and take full responsibility for what they've done and make amends.

See this article about the obligation to honor abusive parents:
http://www.drsorotzkin.com/articles.html
 
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wishtobehappy
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Keepclimbing, I don't know much about your situation, but from what I did understand, your family has hurt you almost beyond repair. There are different levels of abuse, and no two situations are alike. I really admire you for even trying to forgive, and I think you have every right to feel the way you do. Not everything is in our control. For some, healing takes a very long time, and it's okay.

Hopeful, I think it all depends on the extent of the abuse you've been subjected to, on the abuser's personality, and on your own natures.

I grew up in an abusive and chaotic home, and my parents made many mistakes. They were misguided and possibly egotistical, but they are basically good people and didn't do it out of malice, which made it easier for me to forgive them. However, forgiveness and being triggered are two different things.

I still get triggered and feel suffocated by my mother's neediness and manipulation, so avoidance works best for me. As for my father, he's changed his ways to some degree, but being around him feels really awkward for various reasons. Other than the very occasional greetings when our paths cross, the last time we really spoke was probably five years ago. He probably blames me for the non-relationship and years ago he blamed me for the poor relationship between him and my husband, which in hindsight I see had nothing to do with me, but I don't even feel guilty about it anymore, because he does his own share of avoidance. Unfortunately, he was never given the tools to deal with his own shortcomings.
 
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MoMo
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9/12/13 9:36 AM
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Wish,
You put it down very well. I agree.
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: keep climbing
If you knew how much I've davened and pleaded with Hashem to help me forgive and forget, you wouldn't be so callous about this.
I've shed oceans of tears and eaten myself up completely because of my inability to move on.
I have to accept that this is an illness and it's not in my control.
Otherwise I feel guilty and confused and that spells disaster for my mental health.
How about some empathy for the sufferers?


I trust that your therapist is giving you guidance.

Instead of trying to analyze and trying to forgive etc, it would probably be more helpful to try to not even think about this person at all; and if the thought comes up, to move your thinking to a different topic.

in conclusion, I'm not blaming you, and I wish you true peace, and peace of mind, and that you should soon be able to relate good and happy news.

Gemar chasima toivo
 
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gad
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9/12/13 11:14 AM
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Mo mo, thanks for the link. It was very interesting.

You raise a number of important points.

I think that it's possible to separate things.

It's possible to forgive someone, and at the same time to keep one's own sanity healthy.

So, for example, one can decide (especially when advised so by a therapist and a rav) to have nothing at all to do with someone who is toxic, while at the same time to love the person.

It's possible to separate between the person, and the act.

It's possible to accept that everything that happened in the past, happened by hashgocho protis, Divine Providence, and at the same time to be optimistic for the future, and to learn lessons from the past that can help avoid future unpleasantness.

Sometimes (like I wrote to 'keep climbing') it's necessary to not think about the person at all.
But even then, it's possible to feel ahavas yisroel, that every Jew, even the worst sinner, has within him or her a Divine soul which is part of G-d and part of us.
We are not justifying the act. We are being aware of every jew's essential goodness.
 
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gad
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9/12/13 11:34 AM
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Wishtobehappy

Thank you for sharing.

Hope to hear good news.
 
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HopefulMommy
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For me, the issue is not so much forgiveness. My parents were clueless. I don't think they had the capacity to do things differently. But my issue is how to handle the situation now. I'd really like to get to the point of not being triggered, so that I'd be available to help out as my father gets older. But I haven't been able to. And that's after speaking to a number of therapists, rabbis, rebbetzins, anyone I could think of.
 
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keep climbing
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Hopeful, I want to clarify what I said about forgiveness. I think that in order to stop this crazy triggering that we are experiencing, we have to be able to forgive on some level. Why else are we so pained when we meet our relatives?
I think I haven't fully accepted the situation. If I did, I would be able to cope with seeing them.
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: HopefulMommy
For me, the issue is not so much forgiveness. My parents were clueless. I don't think they had the capacity to do things differently. But my issue is how to handle the situation now. I'd really like to get to the point of not being triggered, so that I'd be available to help out as my father gets older. But I haven't been able to. And that's after speaking to a number of therapists, rabbis, rebbetzins, anyone I could think of.


If staying away (at least to a certain extent) and allowing others to care for him (which is a scenario that shulchan oruch discusses and endorses when it is necessary) keeps you sane, then that's helping your father, since your father (certainly deep within) wants you to be healthy and happy.

It's important to realize that we can only do so much, and that sometimes, painful though it may be, we need to let go, in order to carry on with what Hashem wants us to do.

This all being said, it still may be possible that some method may be found to avoid triggers etc. but until then, we need to know our limits.

Hope to hear good news.
Gemar chasima toivo
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: keep climbing
Hopeful, I want to clarify what I said about forgiveness. I think that in order to stop this crazy triggering that we are experiencing, we have to be able to forgive on some level. Why else are we so pained when we meet our relatives?
I think I haven't fully accepted the situation. If I did, I would be able to cope with seeing them.



I think that the pain, when meeting these relatives, can have a number of causes:
We are mourning a lost relationship, especially when previous bonds had been very close.
And since deep down we often still love them, we are distressed (and perhaps feel guilty) with our necessary avoidance of them.

Perhaps what I wrote before can help: that we can focus on the essential person, the soul, which is pure and holy (and which is even more revealed now, on Yom Kippur).

And at the same time to be aware that sometimes relationships can be toxic, and that (for now at least) the best thing one can do is to avoid as much as possible, and to give everyone (including yourself) important space.

Interestingly, we see a parallel with yoseph and his brothers.
Yoseph repaid their actions with good, allowing them the opportunity to make amends, and then embracing them and providing for them and their families.
Still, after yaakov passed away, yoseph stopped inviting them to his table to eat.
When they became alarmed, he reassured them that he didn't plan to harm them. But still we see that he kept his distance.
So we learn from this, that it's possible to love someone, but that it still may be important and necessary to keep a healthy distance.

So when you write about the need to forgive them at some level, perhaps that following can help:
We believe that everything that happens is bashert, by Divine Providence (and is ultimately for our benefit).
The perpetrator is still accountable for his or her actions. But the thing that happened, happened by Divine Providence.
So to think 'if that person wouldn't have done it, it wouldn't have happened' is incorrect. Once it happened, it was bashert, and it says that 'G-d has many messengers.'

When we are able to separate the act from the person, then we can perhaps find it somewhat easier to mend our broken heart somewhat.
We still may need to maintain avoidance, but we can begin to relate more to the essential goodness, inherent in the G-dly soul, and to feel that we care about the relative, and want their well being.


Hope to hear good news

Gemar chasima toivo


Edited: 9/13/13 at 3:03 PM by gad
 
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HopefulMommy
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Thanks for the encouragement, Gad!

Keep Climbing, I've already done the grieving, and I think I'm at the acceptance stage. But my father is just as unpredictable as before, and whenever I'm around him, all these feelings of helplessness and loss of control come right back. It's impossible to plan things with him or agree on a plan of action. He changes everything last minute.
 
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