Login
Questions or Comments!
admin@frumsupport.com

Get FrumSupport News! Join our mailing list.
Email:


Search

Navigation:

 Tehilim List  < Refresh >
TOPIC TITLE: torah perspective
Created On 8/20/08 1:15 AM
Topic View:

View thread in raw text format


iWish
Junior Supporter

Posts: 13
Joined: Jun 2008

8/20/08 1:15 AM
User is offline

i'm wondering if some of the more 'learned' people (any rabbis?) out there can shed some light on this.

on my way to school one day a couple of weeks ago i was listening to a rabbi's lecture and the rabbi was talking about the destruction of the bet hamikdash and he was saying that the reason that is hasn't been rebuilt and we don't have a relationship with g-d anymore is cuz we don't know how to have a relationship and show appreciation with those who give to us - namely, our parents. and he went on to say that the concept of therapy is wrong cuz it traces problems to the parents and puts the 'blame' on the parents when it's really the kid who needs to take responsibilty for what's happening. not only that - the child has an obligation to appreciate and respect the parents NO MATTER WHAT, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY DID/DIDN'T SHOULD/SHOULDN'TVE COULD/COULDN'TVE ETC. and then he said that no one can say that this doesn't pertain to them cuz everyone's parents fed them, burped them, diapered them, clothed them etc when they were a helpless infant and, just for that alone, parents deserve to be appreciated and respected and trusted and listened to etc. and that kids/teens these days are so focused on what they need and what they want and on themselves, so they find excuses that 'oh my parents are so horrible so i don't have to do my religious obligations' to make themsleves feel that it's okay to shirk their responsibility as a child. and then they go to therapy to hear all of this 'convoluted thinking' reinforced when the parents are blamed for everything that went wrong.

i'm a big thinker and this got me thinking about parents and children.
a lot of this bothered me, but i think what i want to ask about first is these two points:

1- i think that a lot of the way people view situations/relationships is based on perspective.
the way the parents view the relationship...
the way the children view the relationship...
perceived expectations - a HUGE one.

and this got me thinking that maybe there's something wrong with the way i'm perceiving my situation. (i believe that cbt is huge on this idea of perception of the situation - is it not?) i have very little contact with people outside my family so i don't know what's 'normal'. but maybe some of u can help me with this.

what's 'normal' in terms of kids having responsibility for the household running?
what's 'normal' in terms of what kids get/need socially? (meaning, my mom did not allow us to have friends. period. i grew up never mentioning the word friend at home and thinking that the word best friend was a 'bad word'. seriously)
what's 'normal' in terms of freedom given to children as they grow up to do things on their own. letting go or giving some independence?
what's 'normal' in terms of where to draw the line between family and self?
what's 'normal' in terms of how parents can talk to kids?
what's 'normal' in terms of how much of the parents' responsibilities (both physical and emotional) are delegated to kids?
for that matter, what are 'normal' parent responsibilities in a house?
what are 'normal' child responsibilities?

do u get what i'm asking? i think what i'm trying to ask is how do i know that what i'm experiencing is real. could it be that i'm only perceiving the situation as worse than it is? that i'm fooling myself and 'creating drama' to get out of my obligations (of respect, appreciation etc) as a child? i really don't think of myself as such a person, but i may be in the woods so i don't have a clear view of this.

2- i'm wondering what people think about the concept that if parents took care of us physically they automatically deserve appreciation and devotion from their kids. yes. it's true. mine did take care of my physical needs. and they do provide me with food and shelter etc now. but isn't there more to a parent's job? isn't emotional stability just as important? and what if they hurt you on an emotional level. does that count? yes, they fed me when i was a baby. but if they couldn't give me a hug or kiss EVER or communicate some kind of emotional connection EVER...did they do their job? or if they made me AFRAID to come home with less than a 98 on every test? (not because they'd whip me or anything. but because there was an unspoken rule that we MUST be perfect in our schoolwork. otherwise...i don't know, but i never wanted to find out) or if they did not allow any social interaction? (as i'm writing, i'm seeing that i'm getting back to the expectations

these are the two big things that i've really been toying with. any insight would be appreciated.

i sincerely do want to be a good jew...but is this the real deal?

and please answer honestly. if i'm wrong, i'd rather find out now than after i die...
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

8/20/08 2:12 AM
User is offline

>Re: Blaming you for the destruction of the Beis Hamikdosh.
I remember once when someone was accused in a very similar fashion. The accused consulted with a very great Rabbi . The Rabbi responded that it was "an unfair guilt trip."

>and he went on to say that the concept of therapy is wrong
Generally speaking the Torah gives permission to doctors to heal. Generally speaking authoritative Rabbis endorse therapy by doctors. Sometimes there may be a particular question in halacha, in which case qualified Rabbis should be consulted.

>cuz it traces problems to the parents and puts the 'blame' on the parents when it's really the kid who needs to take responsibilty for what's happening.
Depends on the case.

>not only that - the child has an obligation to appreciate and respect the parents NO MATTER WHAT, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY DID/DIDN'T SHOULD/SHOULDN'TVE COULD/COULDN'TVE ETC. and then he said that no one can say that this doesn't pertain to them cuz everyone's parents fed them, burped them, diapered them, clothed them etc when they were a helpless infant and, just for that alone, parents deserve to be appreciated
yes

>and respected
perhaps

>and trusted
not always

>and listened to
not always.

>etc. and that kids/teens these days are so focused on what they need and what they want and on themselves, so they find excuses that 'oh my parents are so horrible so i don't have to do my religious obligations' to make themsleves feel that it's okay to shirk their responsibility as a child.
This is too much of a generalization. Sometimes the parent is to blame, sometimes the kid, sometimes both, and sometimes neither.

>what are 'normal' child responsibilities?
A great Rabbi once told me, that the answer is "the middle path." (Not too liberal, and not too strict.)

>do u get what i'm asking? i think what i'm trying to ask is how do i know that what i'm experiencing is real. could it be that i'm only perceiving the situation as worse than it is? that i'm fooling myself and 'creating drama' to get out of my obligations (of respect, appreciation etc) as a child? i really don't think of myself as such a person, but i may be in the woods so i don't have a clear view of this.
I think you can trust your therapist. And if you are not sure, you can ask a Rabbi or a mentor whom you trust.


> but isn't there more to a parent's job? isn't emotional stability just as important?
yes.

>and what if they hurt you on an emotional level. does that count? yes, they fed me when i was a baby. but if they couldn't give me a hug or kiss EVER or communicate some kind of emotional connection EVER...did they do their job? or if they made me AFRAID to come home with less than a 98 on every test? (not because they'd whip me or anything. but because there was an unspoken rule that we MUST be perfect in our schoolwork. otherwise...i don't know, but i never wanted to find out) or if they did not allow any social interaction? (as i'm writing, i'm seeing that i'm getting back to the expectations
Hugging and kissing is important. Afraid to come home with less than 98 is not right. Not allowing any social interacting is not right.
You can view it as follows. You don't blame or judge them, because it could be that they just didn't know how to do things better. You love them and appreciate the good things they did for you. You tell yourself that whatever happened was bashert, by Divine Providence, and it was for your best, even if we don't understand now how it was for the best. But for the future you need to defend yourself and your mental health. So you should be respectful and polite, but you should stand up for your rights. If you need to say no, you try to do so respectfully. If you need to walk away to get your space, then you need to do so.

Hope to hear good news.


Edited: 8/20/08 at 4:40 AM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

8/20/08 11:02 AM
User is offline

I recommend the book Inner Torah by Miriam Millhauser, and her other books too. Her approach is that everything that happens to you was meant to happen, in order for you to grow, so there is no need to blame your parents, or anyone else, but you have to take responsibility and deal with the situation you are in, which involves healing your emotional state. In some cases, and I think this would be true for you, it involves accepting that the situation you are/were in is not healthy, letting yourself grieve over that fact, giving yourself emotional support, and finding the strength within yourself to overcome your challenges and go on.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Aba
Senior Supporter

Posts: 546
Joined: Jul 2008

10/23/08 1:11 PM
User is offline View users profile

I know this is an old post but I was rereading something and I can across the P'Sock of Rabbi Yitzchok Zilberstein, the Rov of Ramat Elchonon, Bnei Brak (and the son-in-law of Harav Y. S. Elyashev shlit"a) and other that it is permissible to discuss parental actions during therapy and in the (translated) words of Rov Zilberstein:
"If the father hasn't done teshuvah then he is a rosha and there is no obligation to honor him."
"If the patient's father had done teshuvah in which case; One can assume that he would consent that his daughter disrespect him in her heart so that she should [be healed and] be able to marry, and so that he should achieve a kaparah for what he did to her."
"Rabbi Zilberstein concludes that the therapist, in this case, acted according to halachah and fulfilled many mitzvoth including that of healing the sick."

Kol Tuv,
Aba


-------------------------
"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



justso
Supporter

Posts: 50
Joined: Sep 2008

12/11/08 2:45 AM
User is offline

what should a mother do if the father is verbally abusive? RAbbanim say that the parents should always give a united front.

But my husband and I have a differant take on parenting. He is very old fashion and sees things in black and white. He uses a standard which is not realistic to our situation: he sees how the children of a rav of his respect the rav, their father. They are so deferential and rush to ask what he needs.

My husband is my daughter's step father and has been explosive in the past. She used to be afraid of him, but now she just doesn't like him nor respect him.

He accuses her of always doing something "destructive" at the shabbat table. However, if we don't have quests then she is scrutanized -- all the focus is on her. eg if she turns her head away or plays with a sppon/napkin.... during kiddush.

Nobody accepts tochaha if it is given harshly. He doesn't get it.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

12/11/08 5:33 AM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: justso
RAbbanim say that the parents should always give a united front.

We give a united front if it is constructive, not if it is abusive.
But if you argue with your husband, then that can affect sholom bayis.

Perhaps you need the advise of a Rav or therapist. Maybe someone (whom your husband respects) can speak to him.

In the meantime, you can be a source of comfort for your daughter. To hug her and to tell her that you love her. This way she can feel your empathy, that you feel sorry for what she is going through, and that you hope that things will get better, and that you know that she is good.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

12/15/08 7:57 PM
User is offline

Is there a way to get your husband to take a parenting class? Or read a parenting book?

Rabbi Orlowek is big into respect -- you get your child to respect you if you treat her respectfully as well.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Aba
Senior Supporter

Posts: 546
Joined: Jul 2008

12/24/08 8:57 PM
User is offline View users profile

>what should a mother do if the father is verbally abusive?
>RAbbanim say that the parents should always give a united front.

Once when Ema was having a difficult time I went to speak to Rabbi David Feinstein and he told me that it was my responsibility to protect the children should they ever be exposed to any abuse.

BTW I found him very understanding of our situation and easy to talk to.

Hope this helps,
Aba


-------------------------
"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
Psychologist

Posts: 914
Joined: Feb 2005

12/24/08 10:46 PM
User is offline

Thank you everyone for responding so thoughtfully.
a lynn
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     

View thread in raw text format
FORUMS > General (Mental Health) < Refresh >

Navigation:

The information in this site is not intended to replace the advice of a doctor. FrumSupport disclaims any liability for the decisions you, the User, makes based on information on this site. By using this site, reading, viewing, posting or otherwise, you signify your assent to the Terms and Conditions of Use. If you do not agree to all these Terms and Conditions of Use, please do not use this site. FrumSupport may revise and update these Terms and Conditions of Use at anytime. Your continued usage of FrumSupport will mean you accept those changes.

If you think you or someone you know has a medical emergency, call your doctor, Hatzolah or 911 immediately. FrumSupport cannot and does not monitor forums and postings and cannot and will not pro-actively obtain help for users in need as FrumSupport does not have the funds or people power to accomplish such tasks and it will infringe on the anonymity of each user. Therefore, FrumSupport’s liability is limited by this paragraph and as further set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use.