Login
Questions or Comments!
admin@frumsupport.com

Get FrumSupport News! Join our mailing list.
Email:


Search

Navigation:

 Tehilim List  < Refresh >
TOPIC TITLE: I am like my mom....:(
Created On 1/6/09 2:05 AM
Topic View:

View thread in raw text format


mouse
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1932
Joined: Oct 2007

1/6/09 2:05 AM
User is offline View users profile

OK, I've decided I'm a mean, big (not-so,) old mom. I'm just not sure what to do about it. If you read the other "mom" post I wrote you will hear about miserable shabbos with kid crying cuz of hurt feelings. Well now, I've got a problem. My father's yahrtzeit will be coming in a few weeks and I'm supposed to go down to visit my mom for the day with siblings and have a meal or something to remember dad. Problem is my daughter isn't interested in going now that she's been hurt by grandma. The therapist asked her if she wanted to go and she said, no. Therapist also asked if she had spoken to grandma since the incident and she answered, no. That is pretty true -- she hasn't spoken to grandma since -- even during a four hour car ride with her and a one hour meal. So, needless to say, therapist says it's probably not a good idea to visit right now while my daughter is still hurt. She also said it may not be a good idea for me to visit as my mom was violating boundaries (she did) and in the past has been emotionally and physically abusive to me. I was basically told that the two of us aren't doing well enough to justify the four hour visit. (It's a pretty long ride each way though -- so it's a full day affair...3 hrs. there and 3 hrs back.) I'm just concerned about it from the Jewish point of view -- the therapist isn't frum (no speeches on this one -- it's either non-frum therapist or no therapist and lots of problems.) What are my responsibilities to my mom? What are my responsibilities to my child? How about me -- do i fit in the picture at all? If I go, I must take the kid with me -- she's six and it is a family event. If I don't go, do I make up an excuse? Do I tell the truth? I considered telling mom that I can't go because of her behavior towards my daughter and taht she is still upset. But I know if I do, my child will be the "bad" kid for a long time. I feel like if I go I am like my mom who didn't protect me against my primary abuser (and was abusive herself) and that I'm not worthy to be a mom. What really bugs me is that it didn't occur to me not to go to the yahrtzeit thingy which leads to believe....I AM LIKE MY MOM!!!! YIKES!!!!


-------------------------

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



su7kids
Senior Supporter

Posts: 485
Joined: Nov 2006

1/6/09 2:16 AM
User is offline View users profile

Firstly, I think your first responsibility is to your child. So, I vote that you stay home with your child.

Tell your mom that you (or child) are not feeling well, and you'll mark Daddy's Yartzeit at home this year.

You are NOT like your mother. YOU are learning, and will take this as a learning experience and probably won't allow it to happen again.

Be a mom, but don't be like yours. You will make different mistakes than your mom, we all do, but you will learn from this. PROTECT YOUR CHILD! Its like you protecting your "inner child" as well!


-------------------------
Proud Mom of 7, MIL to 3, Grandmom of 4!
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



mouse
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1932
Joined: Oct 2007

1/6/09 2:18 AM
User is offline View users profile

Is this one of those times I should consult my rabbi as to my responsibilities to Kibbud av v'em?


-------------------------

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



su7kids
Senior Supporter

Posts: 485
Joined: Nov 2006

1/6/09 2:20 AM
User is offline View users profile

With regard to Kivud, you don't have eto be RUDE to her.

You can ask a Rav, but ask him also what your responsibility is to your child. I believe that your first responsibility is to protect your child.


-------------------------
Proud Mom of 7, MIL to 3, Grandmom of 4!
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/6/09 2:23 AM
User is offline

I agree with su7.

I don't think that this is a question for the Rav. It seems to be a clear case of protecting your health and your child's health.

Especially if you use the excuse of not feeling well. This would enable you to bow out relatively peacefully, without an argument (hopefully).
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/6/09 2:28 AM
User is offline

On the other hand, the therapist said that it "may" not be a good idea for you to go. So if you feel comfortable going, you may want to go yourself. (And to give the excuse for your daughter that she wasn't feeling well.)
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



mouse
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1932
Joined: Oct 2007

1/6/09 4:14 AM
User is offline View users profile

Gad, the way it was phrased and with taking into consideration the intonation...I think she meant "don't go not good idea in the end you will pay the price emotionally."


-------------------------

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Aba
Senior Supporter

Posts: 546
Joined: Jul 2008

1/6/09 11:48 AM
User is offline View users profile

Munkster,
I find it hard to believe you are like your Mom just because you took it for granted you will go to your Mom's home for your father's yahrtzeit. If I was you I'm sure it would be my first reaction too. The concern you are having for your daughter is very commendable and shows your are very different.

Dr Sorotzkin in the beginning of his article on abusive parents, http://www.drsorotzkin.com/honoring_abusive_parents.html , wrote
Quote

The petur of choleh
Harav Dovid Cohen shlit"a has stated [see addendum] that if interacting with an abusive parent makes a person emotionally ill then the child is exempt from this obligation.

so you don't need to go.

I would also assume having a hazkrah for your father at your home and avoiding the fallout in your Mom's home would be a bigger zechus for your father and therefore also a fulfillment of Kibud Av.

Please forgive me but I don't know if this is your first yahrtzeit, if it is I just want to point out that it is very common to be in a bad mood on the day of a parent's yahrtzeit so A. don't be upset with yourself if you are and B. worn your kids before hand that you may have a difficult day.

May his Neshuma have an Aleyah,
Aba


-------------------------
"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/6/09 12:43 PM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: munkster
I think she meant "don't go not good idea in the end you will pay the price emotionally."

You are probably better off to leave out this get-together, and perhaps to get together on other occasions.


Edited: 1/6/09 at 12:52 PM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/6/09 12:50 PM
User is offline

Abba writes:
"I would also assume having a hazkrah for your father at your home and avoiding the fallout in your Mom's home would be a bigger zechus for your father and therefore also a fulfillment of Kibud Av."

In addition to this, I would add that your father's neshomo has nachas and is happy when he sees that you are happy and accomplishing good things. So if staying away this time means that you are protecting your (and your daughter's) well being, which enables you to accomplish more good things in a happy, optimistic way, then this makes your father happy.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



mouse
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1932
Joined: Oct 2007

1/7/09 1:40 AM
User is offline View users profile

Thank you Su7, Aba, and Gad for your input. I'm going to try really hard not to take the easy way out rather stay home and honor my father in my own way. This is the fourth yahrtzeit so I'm already used to things about that day. It's not so bad as my dad suffered greatly before dying therefore to me it brought tremendous relief to the situation. (However, it wasn't for nothing, as he also celebrated many simchos and saw many grandchildren be born from the time of diagnosis to death.)

Aba, the reason why I feel like I'm my mom is that my mom would also have put her "role" in the family before her kids. She wasn't the best at protecting me from any abuse. (I admit I do have one memory when she got upset with my grandmother for calling me fat, but that's it.) It's a level of selfishness which is terrible. On one hand I can't see not going to this meal at my mom's house; on the other hand, I can't see being so selfish as to expose my kids to the same verbal abuse as I was exposed to all of my life. And for some reason, what I think is best for ME outweighs the needs of a six yr. old who is in obvious pain??? That's why I'm upset with myself. In the past people I know have always said they would protect their children above all else -- why is that so difficult for me to do? Why am I so selfish? It really bugs me.


-------------------------

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/7/09 4:02 AM
User is offline

I think that everyone is "programmed" to be part of family. And when we grow older we become more aware of our own needs, as well as the needs of our children. And, as su7 said, this is a learning experience.

In other words, as we progress in life, we learn to fine tune things, to refine ourselves, and to make decisions that are wiser and more beneficial. We learn to be more aware of what Hashem wants.

And this is true of everyone, each on their level.

There is probably always certain levels of abuse or incorrectness in every family, some more tangible, some less.

Our job is to try to make progress.

So while you may think you are the only one, the truth is that everyone is in the same boat.
And when we make things better, we are turning darkness into light. And making the world a better place.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Aba
Senior Supporter

Posts: 546
Joined: Jul 2008

1/7/09 12:23 PM
User is offline View users profile

>my mom would also have put her "role" in the family before her kids
>And for some reason, what I think is best for ME outweighs the needs of a six yr. old who is in obvious pain???
>why is that so difficult for me to do? Why am I so selfish?
>It really bugs me.

Just b/c you may have a similar nisyon as your mother don't make you like your your mother
Viktor E. Frankl is quoted "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." you recognize the nisyon and I"YH you shall prevail.

Another famous quote from my childhood was "Knowing is half the battle" (GI Joe ) so you are half way there.

Kol Tuv,
Aba


-------------------------
"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



killedlastyear
Senior Supporter

Posts: 628
Joined: Apr 2006

1/7/09 12:33 PM
User is offline

wow. you are thinking about your kids. you're asking for advice because you CARE. you didnt just say "oh whatever the kids will live i'm going to go visit mom". you're thinking about how it will affect them and asking advice about the best way to go about this. you obviously care about your children.

i don't have kids so i don't know what's "normal" but i would think it not so unusual for us to think about ourselves first. we're human right? but the fact that you ask shows you still care about your kids. maybe that's just something you're meant to work on? i think it's something that alot of us have to work on.

my vote is in listening to the therapist and not bringing your daughter.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

1/9/09 12:32 AM
User is offline

Munkster, I don't know what's normal, but I am worse than you. It is very hard for me to protect my children from my father. I can't bring myself to say no to him. I let him come to my house and drive me and them crazy. I drag them to his house when he insists that I come. I feel powerless and get totally depressed.

When I first read your post, my reaction was, if it was me I would go. I don't see myself not going. I think you're very brave that you're even entertaining that possibility.

If you don't go it will be a major accomplishment on your part. Especially if you talk to your Rav about it. I still have on my to do list to call my Rav and ask him what to do about my father. I keep procrastinating.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



mouse
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1932
Joined: Oct 2007

1/9/09 2:17 AM
User is offline View users profile

The problem is I know what is going to happen come the day of the yahrtzeit. I'm going to be given a guilt trip and me, being the dutiful daughter that I am, will become suicidal and do something stupid (or perhaps not so stupid?) Alternatively, my mom will feel upset but not express it and then I will feel it is my duty to give myself the guilt trip instead and then back to something stupid.... It's like I need to be punished for not going regardless of how my mom feels or expresses her feelings. It's not helping that I'm already having problems with suicidal thoughts. It's like the smallest thing, or nothing, will set them off right now and it has nothing to do with my dad's death so far as I can tell. I'm frustrated because I know I will be suicidal if I go too since it isn't good for my daughter or me and it's not right to put either of us in that situation. I'm not sure if I'm making sense.


-------------------------

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



su7kids
Senior Supporter

Posts: 485
Joined: Nov 2006

1/9/09 2:33 AM
User is offline View users profile

Munkster, I'm wondering, if you're anticipating the feelings, can you anticipate handling them in a different manner?

Guilt usually is reserved for when you do something wrong, and I'm wondering what you would be doing WRONG if you did NOT go to your mother? I'm really thinking there must be different thoughts that you can start putting into your head so they're "in place" when the time comes.


-------------------------
Proud Mom of 7, MIL to 3, Grandmom of 4!
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/9/09 3:13 AM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: munkster
The problem is I know what is going to happen come the day of the yahrtzeit. I'm going to be given a guilt trip ...

It's the atttached guilt trip which is causing problems.

If you can somehow cut off the guilt trip, disattach yourself from it, you should be OK.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/9/09 3:18 AM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: su7kids
I'm really thinking there must be different thoughts that you can start putting into your head so they're "in place" when the time comes.


Maybe to tell yourself: "If my mother blames me, I will not feel guilty. Because I am doing the right thing."
And: "If my mother doesn't blame me, I will not feel guilty. I am doing the right thing, and there is no reason for guilt."

In other words, to distance yourself from the guilt; and to look at the guilt as something foreign, not connected to you.

 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



mouse
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1932
Joined: Oct 2007

1/9/09 5:55 AM
User is offline View users profile

Thank you for your input Gad and Su7. I will try what you suggested even though the anxiety is already there.


-------------------------

All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



su7kids
Senior Supporter

Posts: 485
Joined: Nov 2006

1/9/09 10:24 AM
User is offline View users profile

Munkster, of course the anxiety is there. It is a big decision to make, but slowly slowly start working it down and keep endorsing and praising yourself every time you consciously make the right decision (which we all strongly believe is NOT to go, for your daughter's sake). Keep telling yourself that you're being a great mom for taking care of your daughter in a way that you were never taken care of and that this is a good thing you're doing and NEVER use the word "but" or "however" in that praising.

It doesn't matter what your mother thinks about the situation, she is the abusive one and abusive people have no right to demand that one puts oneself in an abusive situation. Obviously she doesn't have the tools to be kind. You do! Use them and be PROUD OF YOURSELF.

Keep going, my friend, you can do it!


-------------------------
Proud Mom of 7, MIL to 3, Grandmom of 4!
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



4702125952
Supporter

Posts: 137
Joined: Feb 2006

1/15/09 10:55 AM
User is offline

Munkster,

Why not do something really 'far out' and go do something you enjoy? Celebrate the fact that you are surviving an abusive childhood and have been given a chance to do things differently for your kids! Take a walk in thepark, eat out, visit a friend, watch a movie (Oh no!) or video....
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     

View thread in raw text format
FORUMS > General (Mental Health) < Refresh >

Navigation:

The information in this site is not intended to replace the advice of a doctor. FrumSupport disclaims any liability for the decisions you, the User, makes based on information on this site. By using this site, reading, viewing, posting or otherwise, you signify your assent to the Terms and Conditions of Use. If you do not agree to all these Terms and Conditions of Use, please do not use this site. FrumSupport may revise and update these Terms and Conditions of Use at anytime. Your continued usage of FrumSupport will mean you accept those changes.

If you think you or someone you know has a medical emergency, call your doctor, Hatzolah or 911 immediately. FrumSupport cannot and does not monitor forums and postings and cannot and will not pro-actively obtain help for users in need as FrumSupport does not have the funds or people power to accomplish such tasks and it will infringe on the anonymity of each user. Therefore, FrumSupport’s liability is limited by this paragraph and as further set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use.