Login
Questions or Comments!
admin@frumsupport.com

Get FrumSupport News! Join our mailing list.
Email:


Search

Navigation:

 Tehilim List  < Refresh >
TOPIC TITLE: Abusive relationship?
Created On 7/27/12 12:36 PM
Topic View:

View thread in raw text format


star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

7/27/12 12:36 PM
User is offline

Sometimes I think that Hashem makes me depressed in order to humble me.
Does that mean I would be arrogant if not for this illness?
Does He want me to be constantly aware of how dependent I am on Him,
to keep me sane?
So then perhaps He doesn't like when I'm feeling good, because maybe then I don't think
of Him as much, as when I'm down.
But maybe that's looking at it like an abusive relationship where the abuser always has to be in control?
Is it supposed to be more of a father-child relationship where the child knows in the back of their mind
that they are dependent on the parent, but sometimes forgets?

I would appreciate hearing anyone's thoughts on this. These questions are really bothering and confusing me.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

7/27/12 3:53 PM
User is offline

your whole post is based on the premise of the first sentence in the post.

but the answer to the first sentence is, that we don't know why Hashem does this.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

7/27/12 4:19 PM
User is offline

Abuse is when the abuser is only concerned about himself and is manipulating the abused for his own benefit. Clearly, Hashem doesn't need us and doesn't derive benefit from manipulating us. Reminding us of His presence is only for our own benefit. Hashem doesn't need to feel in control, because He's in control anyway. We need to let go of control, and of our sense of independent existence to some extent, in order to be able to unite with Him and experience the ultimate pleasure of deveikus.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

7/27/12 6:21 PM
User is offline

gad, i have the right to ask questions to make some sense of this gehinnom.
im trying to make sense of my relationship with Him and i think thats legitimate.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



toy123
Senior Supporter

Posts: 834
Joined: Sep 2009

7/27/12 7:20 PM
User is offline

Hey star ,

I know exactly how u feel. I never looked at Hashem as an abuser cuz it just seems very harsh to me but of course u have a right to ask and should ask because it'll get everythijg out, just keep in mind that u won't always get an answer. I always used to ask and still do sometimes liike why did i haave to get married only to get divorced? Why is my life so hard? Etc... Its healthy to ask but remember u might not always get an answer.. Have a wonder shabbos and an easy fast.


-------------------------
Sometimes you need to run away just to see who will follow you.

Sometimes when I say "I'm okay", I want someone to look me in the eyes, hug me tight and say "I know you are not".

Just because I'm smiling doesn't mean I'm happy.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

7/27/12 7:29 PM
User is offline

we have the right to ask.

but we also have the ability to believe.

hope to hear good news
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

7/30/12 1:04 PM
User is offline

Another thought I'd like to add is that what you think of as humility is probably not what humility really is. Humility doesn't mean that you see yourself as a piece of garbage, or even that you feel incapable and incompetent. It's the opposite. You relinquish your desire for control by attaching yourself to Hashem, and then, when you see yourself as a conduit of Divine energy, you're able to do just about anything, because Hashem can do anything! You become infinitely great, because you're connected to the infinite light. You give up control, but you retain your individuality and your sense of purpose, and you feel strong and capable, and happy too. If thinking about humility pulls you down then it's not the kind of humility Hashem wants.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



wishtobehappy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 836
Joined: Aug 2011

7/30/12 6:03 PM
User is offline

I love your post hopeful. It's beautiful and so very true.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

7/31/12 1:12 AM
User is offline

Thank you. You know the mashal about the bags? The boss sent a worker to carry a bag upstairs. The worker came up carrying a heavy bag, sweating and panting. The boss took one look at him and said, "You took the wrong bag! My bag was as light as a feather!" The nimshal is that Hashem's Torah is light and pleasant, and if we find ourselves sweating and panting it must be that we are interpreting it incorrectly.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
Psychologist

Posts: 914
Joined: Feb 2005

8/23/12 11:32 AM
User is offline

Star-
Of course I don't know WHY you are going through what you are going through. My hope is that the pain can be transformative in some way, so that you are able to help yourself and others.
May the R'S'O take away your suffering!
a lynn
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/6/12 4:24 PM
User is offline

Today I kept feeling anxious about feeling good. Like if I get too confident, Hashem will knock me off my high horse ans show me who's really in charge.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/6/12 5:02 PM
User is offline

it's normal to have feeling like that.

one way that may help is to focus on the task at hand, and to be confident that Hashem will help us succeed in doing what He wants.

may Hashem answer our davening for a good and sweet year.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/6/12 5:41 PM
User is offline


one way that may help is to focus on the task at hand, and to be confident that Hashem will help us succeed in doing what He wants.

lol but what if its doing not what He wants?


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

9/7/12 1:36 AM
User is offline

I've felt this way a lot. I've worked on it, though. I'm trying hard to live in the moment and enjoy, and thank Hashem for, the times when I feel good. I used to think that I'll only be able to enjoy life if I was completely cured, or if I had some kind of guarantee that I'll never feel anxious or depressed again. Now I'm consciously noticing enjoyable moments in life and trying not to think about the future too much. Part of it is acceptance. I have mental health issues, and that's OK. They limit my life, and that's OK. I saw a cute newborn today and didn't feel either sad or jealous. I was actually enjoying watching him and talking to my kids about how cute he was. So what that I can't have my own newborn at the moment? I can still enjoy somebody else'.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we don't really understand why Hashem does things. You're making an assumption that the reason your good moments don't last is so that you won't get too confident, or so that Hashem will show you who's in charge. But that might not be the case. It could be that Hashem is giving you this nisayon because He believes in you and is confident that you can grow through this experience and achieve some kind of tikkun for yourself, or maybe even for the whole world. You don't know how much you're accomplishing at each and every moment of a low state. If you let go of the negativity and see this experience as bringing something positive into the world it might actually get easier.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/7/12 3:39 AM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: star
but what if its doing not what He wants?

but we know that He wants us to do torah and mitzvos.
so we basically know what He wants (although we need to, from time to time, analyze that we are on the right path).


Edited: 9/7/12 at 3:40 AM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/7/12 12:24 PM
User is offline

i could know what He wants but still want to do something else...so why would He help me succeed in other areas? That sounds selfish, that He'll only help me
to do what He wants.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



wishtobehappy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 836
Joined: Aug 2011

9/7/12 12:35 PM
User is offline

He's a lot less selfish than you think. He'll help you do whatever you want.
b'derech she'adam rotzeh leilech molichin oso.
Doing something wrong or bad often goes much more smoothly than doing something good.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/7/12 12:41 PM
User is offline

thats true. still not sure what how to counteract the anxiety that once i get too confident, He'll throw me down again.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/7/12 2:06 PM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: star... still not sure what how to counteract the anxiety that once i get too confident, He'll throw me down again.


that's where bitochon comes in. that we trust that Hashem will help us with everything (even if we are worried that we are overconfident etc.)


Edited: 9/7/12 at 5:58 PM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/7/12 2:06 PM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: star
That sounds selfish, that He'll only help me to do what He wants.

it's for us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRd-zMqS1Q


Edited: 9/7/12 at 5:55 PM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/7/12 6:00 PM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: star
i could know what He wants but still want to do something else...so why would He help me succeed in other areas?

when we want to do what He wants, then (even if we aren't perfect etc..) we trust in Him that He'll help us.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/7/12 6:28 PM
User is offline

wow that video brought me close to tears "if you follow this path, you'll find Me." wow. thanks so much for posting that.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/7/12 6:29 PM
User is offline

im crying because it ignited my neshama which i haven't heard in a long time. thank you.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

9/7/12 8:01 PM
User is offline

Yes, so true. It's for us. I feel it. Not always. There are times of hester panim. But I've had many experiences of feeling closer to Hashem through mitzvos, even if they don't make any sense logically. It's the path to kedusha.

Star, I'm still wondering if it's possible that your neshama is not getting enough spiritual nourishment in this world, and that's why it doesn't like it here so much.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/8/12 8:30 PM
User is offline

honestly, it kind of hurts hearing that. Are you saying I'm not doing enough spiritual things? Or not taking care of my Neshama properly?
It may be true, but being told to add to what I'm already doing just makes me feel resentful.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/8/12 8:37 PM
User is offline

also its being implied that the depression is from a spiritual problem , as opposed to a physical one.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/8/12 10:16 PM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: star
thanks so much for posting that.

you're welcome.

it says that elul is a special time, when G-d makes Himself accessible and close to us with a warm smiling face, and we in turn feel close to Him.

may all yidden be written and sealed for a good and sweet year.

 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

9/8/12 11:28 PM
User is offline

I'm sorry, Star, I didn't mean to imply either that you're not doing enough or that your depression is not a physical problem.

Let's reframe the whole thing. You are a neshama clothed in a body. You were sent down to this world in a mission, in order to accomlish some kind of tikkun. You don't know what it is yet, because at birth the angel hit you on the lips and made you forget everything you knew before your neshama came down here. That's by design. You are given free will to choose to discover your mission and do it, or to live your life in oblivion and perhaps, after 120 years, come back in a different body for another lifetime. You need to take care of your body so that you'll be healthy and able to complete your mission. Since you have depression, part of taking care of your body is doing everything medically possible to alleviate the symptoms, or perhaps cure it altogether.

At the same time, you have spiritual needs that need to be met just as much as the physical ones. But, unlike the physical needs, they are much harder to pinpoint. Many of us, myself included, go through periods of time when our spiritual needs are not being met, either because we don't quite know how to meet them or because we are having trouble balancing that with our other needs and responsibilities.

What I'm saying is that perhaps your spiritual needs are not being met at the moment, either because you're not in touch with your neshama and don't know what they are or because you're too overwhelmed with meeting your physical needs, such as managing your depression.

Hope this is clearer. Part of being human, and especially being a woman, is that we juggle many balls and drop some of them at times. No one is able to take care of everything perfectly. We women are especially prone to neglecting our needs, and since spiritual needs are not so obvious this is a ball that tends to be dropped first. Again, this is part of our nature, common to all women, and does not at all imply anything negative about you personally.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/8/12 11:56 PM
User is offline

still feel a little hurt by the implication that im
not doing enough.
so if I'm overwhelmed with my physical needs, how do you
expect me to take care of my spiritual needs?
and how would I even go about taking care of my neshama?
I don't expect you to have all the answers; I'm just venting.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

9/9/12 1:03 AM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: HopefulMommy
... I'm still wondering if it's possible that your neshama is not getting enough spiritual nourishment in this world, and that's why it doesn't like it here so much.

i think that sometimes, especially when someone is down, that it's important to motivate with positive ideas which awaken a love for G-d.

when we remind ourselves and each other that we are G-d's children, and that G-d loves every yid like an only child, this can give us encouragement and motivate us to want to come closer to Him.

i think it says that the baal shem tov's name was yisroel because he revived the am yisroel, the jewish people, by showing them are precious they are to G-d, and how much G-d loves every Jew.




Edited: 9/9/12 at 1:03 AM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

9/9/12 6:10 PM
User is offline

Don't have all the answers. You might not have this issue. I'm just suggesting it as a possibility, because I've had this issue, and I found it very helpful to spend more time learning and doing spiritual things. It might not be the case for you. But it won't hurt to try, if you feel like it. If you don't feel like it then maybe it's not your issue. Only you can know. And maybe a tzaddik or chassidic Rebbe who can see into your neshama. Have you ever gotten a bracha from a Rebbe? I've had some interesting experiences with that. There are also spiritual healers who can intuit these things, but you have to be careful to go to somebody who has good haskamos. I had an interesting experience with that also. The person I spoke to was right on in terms of what I had to work on. These people charge money, though.

To reframe a few more things, even if you have some unmet needs, whether physical, emotional, or spiritual, it doesn't mean that you're not doing enough. Life is a process. As you grow you expand and increase your commitments and responsibilities. You might be doing enough for this particular point in life, but might need more months or years down the line. In fact, you might be getting a signal from your neshama that what was enough before is no longer enough. These things change throughout life.

Another point to consider is that you are expected to solve all of life's problems and challenges the moment you become aware of them. This world is imperfect. We are imperfect. Some imperfections are easy to fix, and some stay with us for years or even throughout life. And that's OK. That's to be expected. It doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong. You are the only judge of whether or not you're doing enough. Enough doesn't mean perfect. Enough means doing your best.

This perspective is very helpful in balancing our needs and responsibilities. It's impossible to get everything done. We have to prioritize. And we have to be OK with imperfection.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/9/12 9:28 PM
User is offline

Quote

Originally posted by: gad
[
i think that sometimes, especially when someone is down, that it's important to motivate with positive ideas which awaken a love for G-d.

I think this is true all of the time, at least for me.



-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel

Edited: 9/9/12 at 9:28 PM by star
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



star
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1982
Joined: Jan 2012

9/9/12 9:34 PM
User is offline

Hopefulmommy, "It won't hurt to try." - It can and has hurt to try. I think perhaps you are more
spiritually inclined so its not hard for you to work on increasing in this area, but for me
it is very hard and often breeds resentment.
Perhaps for you, increasing is by doing more tangible things,
but for me it may be increasing focusing on Hashem's love for me.
Right or wrong, this is how I am choosing to view it at the moment.
Different strokes for different folks.

Yes, I have gotten brachos as a young child/baby. I still write to my Rebbe for brachos, however undeserving I may be of them.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



HopefulMommy
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1612
Joined: Nov 2005

9/9/12 11:14 PM
User is offline

Whatever works for you is precisely what you should be doing. I don't even know you, so feel free to take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Your resentment probably comes from a feeling that Hashem is expecting something of you that you're unable to do. But if you do something you enjoy, whatever it is, you probably won't feel resentful, especially if you see it as doing it for yourself, for your own neshama, instead of seeing it as an unreasonable demand from Hashem.

You're perfectly deserving of all the brachos in the world, just like any other Jew. It's different when you're a baby. You probably don't remember much. When you're an adult, you can have a conversation about what you're in this world for and what your neshama needs.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
Psychologist

Posts: 914
Joined: Feb 2005

9/19/12 5:46 PM
User is offline

star-
how are you doing today?
a lynn
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     

View thread in raw text format
FORUMS > General (Mental Health) < Refresh >

Navigation:

The information in this site is not intended to replace the advice of a doctor. FrumSupport disclaims any liability for the decisions you, the User, makes based on information on this site. By using this site, reading, viewing, posting or otherwise, you signify your assent to the Terms and Conditions of Use. If you do not agree to all these Terms and Conditions of Use, please do not use this site. FrumSupport may revise and update these Terms and Conditions of Use at anytime. Your continued usage of FrumSupport will mean you accept those changes.

If you think you or someone you know has a medical emergency, call your doctor, Hatzolah or 911 immediately. FrumSupport cannot and does not monitor forums and postings and cannot and will not pro-actively obtain help for users in need as FrumSupport does not have the funds or people power to accomplish such tasks and it will infringe on the anonymity of each user. Therefore, FrumSupport’s liability is limited by this paragraph and as further set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use.