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TOPIC TITLE: I want to live in Lakewood
Created On 11/27/12 12:18 AM
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emunahdoj
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11/27/12 12:18 AM
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I am sooooo annoyed. I am so sick of this gashmiyas everywhere. Especially starting with Halloween, then xmas, then after that they will bring the Easter stuff.... And on top of it anyone that breathes can get into the one bais yaakov here. There are no standards. I talked to people from Lakewood and Israel and they said that parents have to live up to a certain standard in order for their kids to get into schools. I want a sense of community. I want my whole apartment complex to be frum. I am so sick of this. Someone recently told me that their mom walked through a community in Israel"dressed tsinusly" and a woman came up to her and said "cover yourself up." I like that. There are standards there. I want to live in an area where the way I dress will be normal and the way goyim and kinda tsnius people dress will be not normal. You guys might think I am being judgmental, yeah I am judgmental. And I want to live in an insular community with like minded other judgmental people.
 
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HopefulMommy
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11/28/12 12:15 AM
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Not everyone gets into the LA Bais Yaakov. And there is a chassidish school in LA too.

How do you know that the people in those insulated communities will accept you as one of them and won't judge you?

I've had encounters with people who looked down at me just because I was "out of town," without knowing anything else about me!
 
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emunahdoj
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11/30/12 1:07 AM
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Thanks for responding. As always, you are SO helpful.
 
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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
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12/3/12 1:32 PM
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Did you make any decisions, emunah?
a lynn
 
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CAP
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12/4/12 7:51 PM
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Lakewood is a large community. Certainly a place where people want to grow, focus on Torah and ruchnius.. but there is ALOT of gashmius there too. and ALOT of people that don't dress tznius..
welcome to the REAL world.
Nowhere is prefect.. we have to live for ourselves. (Unless you choose an insultated chassidish place)

Keep strong, attach yourself to growing friends..

Make sure you have a Rav/mentor

Hatzlacha Raba
 
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emunahdoj
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12/16/12 8:10 PM
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CAP-There are people in Lakewood that do not dress tsniusly? Frum people? There is a lot of gashmiyus? My husband and I do have a Rav it just gets very frustrating when there are so many billboards here and that there is one bais yaakov that anyone can get into (does not matter if family has a tv in house or if mom covers her hair.) It makes me SO mad. My husband and I spent time in Monsey and Baltimore and although some untsnius things do exist, there is a strong number of people that are very serious about Torah. Here I feel like the people who are very serious about Torah are the minority. I feel like Lakewood, Boro Park, Baltimore, Monsey is so much better than the West Coast.
 
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CAP
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oh, you are right, but make no mistake. None of these places are perfect.
In the tri-state area, you will have many schools to choose between.. but you will also have a horrific time trying to get into them. with every part of your dress and life being analysed..
I guess definitions of 'not tznius' are relative.. there are many in Lakewood, Flatbush, & beyond who wear long sheitels, shorter skirts, tighter tops.. depending which shul/area you attach yourself to, depends on how large the group..
 
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emunahdoj
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12/17/12 7:54 PM
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So there are people in lakewood with longer sheitels, shorter skirts, tighter clothes-but they probably would not get into certain schools. Here, there is one bais yaakov. And if you wear pants and don't cover your hair, your kid is allowed in! There is no way to shelter your kids here. In Lakewood you guys have groups-there is the more tsnius group, and they go to certain schools. Here, it's all mixed together. ONE bais yaakov. Everyone welcome! Tv-no problem. Short skirt- no problem. COME ON IN!!!!!!!!! I wish that people were analyzed...I heard that in order to get into the school they come to your house and see your clothes, etc. I LIKE THAT. I know some people here reading this might think i sound crazy but i am getting so sick of this here where I live.
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/17/12 11:07 PM
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Emunadoj, it's simply not true. I suggest you spend some time in the city. There is west coast and there is west coast. Why are you insisting on being a victim of circumstances? You have choices, both in LA and outside of it.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/17/12 11:48 PM
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There are ten girls I know personally (and their families) that go to Bais Yaakov whose families fit into the having tv, not dressing tsinus catergory.
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/18/12 1:45 AM
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There are many more that don't.

What about Bnos Esther? And why are you worried about high schools when you don't have kids yet? You'll have plenty of time to move before this stage, IY"H.
 
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mouse
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12/18/12 4:51 PM
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I know this sounds mean, but you don't really know anything about anyone unless you are THAT PERSON. You can't decide that no tv is so great...the guy with no tv may be molesting his daughters for all you know. The woman who doesn't cover her hair may say the tehillim all the way through daily and daven daily as opposed to the "frum" one who wears a shaitel (who really cares about the damn length!!!!) You just don't know and can't judge that a person is more religious because of a stupid tv in or not in the house. People think they are so wise to JUDGE who is frummer or not so frum. NOT WISE. Hashem can judge. NOT US. This has got to be one of the most self righteous and judgemental lines of posts I read in a long time. I know I'm judging but I just don't have the patience to keep my mouth shut any longer.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/18/12 5:32 PM
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I hear you, and you have a point. Sheltering your children comes with a price, one of them being judging people by external appearances, and not seeing the neshama behind the externals.

In my experience, living in a strong Torah community which welcomes people of all levels of observance, the most important thing is the atmosphere you create at home and the values you pass along to your children. I am not making any conscious attempts to shelter my children. You can't shelter them from everything anyway. And sometimes too much sheltering can lead them to perceive the secular world as the forbidden fruit, and then it backfires. But if your home is infused with Torah values and your children see genuine joy you derive from Torah and mitzvos then they tend to internalize your values and gravitate towards friends who value similar things (and dress similarly too).

Of course, there are no guarantees, no matter what community we live in. You daven, and you do your best.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/18/12 7:50 PM
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Munkster- There is halacha. You cannot say that a person who covers their hair might be mean and a person that does not cover her hair might be a nice person. That is NOT the point. The point is that it is halacha to cover your hair. If there are people that do not want to follow halacha, that is their own thing- I am NOT judging them....BUT i do not think they sould be going to bais yaakov. IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO GO TO SCHOOL AND LEARN ABOUT VALIUES AND HALACHA THEN COME HOME AND WATCH AWFUL THINGS ON TV. I am not judging people that do not follow halacha-what I am saying is that I am bothered that in the city where I live, the people that do not follow halacha are mixed together at school with the people who do.
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/18/12 11:18 PM
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But that's munkster's point. You can tell if a person follows Halacha based on external appearances. A person might look very frum but be a child molester in the privacy of his own home. The murder in Boro Park comes to mind. That's an extreme example.

Besides, having a TV at home does not violate halacha.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/18/12 11:50 PM
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Having a tv in your home does violate halacha...

Shomer ayin, it's avoda zara, and gadolim banned it in the 50s. The 1950s when tv was a whole other world than it is today

http://www.aish.com/ci/s/48924702.html
 
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emunahdoj
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12/18/12 11:50 PM
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And the guy in boro park was not frum. He used to be frum a long time ago
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/19/12 1:44 AM
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I don't know of any ruling that TV is assur. The only relevant passage from that article is this:

In March 1975, four leading, traditional Jewish scholars issued an advisory warning about television to traditional Jewish communities.

A warning is not the same as a psak. And even if there was a psak, there will be another opinion. Smoking is not assur either, despite all the known dangers. Halacha permits using your own common sense in many areas of life. It's not black and white.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/19/12 2:29 AM
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The article also states that it is avoda zara...that bringing a tv into your house is bringing an idol into your house. Gadolim banned tv years ago. In addition, men must not loo at immodestly dressed women...how is that going to work with tv in the house? Everything on tv (including disney) contradicts Torah values. I think it is very black and white. Tv contradicts Torah.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/19/12 3:00 AM
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Rav Moshe held it was assur to go to movies and theaters.

Rav Nebontzol (Rav of the old city of Yerushalayim and Talmid of Rav Shlomo Zalma writes in his Mishna Brura (B'Yitzchak Yikrah) in chelek 6 in the back (hanhagos v'minhagim number 3) that Television is assur.

The Lubavitcher Rebberwrites that Television is forbidden because:

1.It is so immodest, that even non-Jews started campaigning against it.
2.It incites people to violence. (Watching movies with people killing each other causes one to think about murder).
3.One will not be able to tell his children to watch only "kosher" material, as they will answer back "but you watch T.V. too".
4.Who says that the parents will not be affected. Today they will watch kosher shows, and tomorrow they will watch not-kosher shows.
5.Even if one (and his children) will watch only kosher shows, who says that others won't say that "since this big chossid has a T.V. I can also" (they won't know that he watches only kosher material on tv).

The Lubavitcher Rebbe points out that in the past, people would avoid Churches, and children would be educated not to even look at a cross. Now, with TV, people bring the church into their house.

 
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mouse
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12/19/12 4:46 AM
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Not everyone goes by those poskim. Be just a tad open minded.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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toy123
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12/19/12 6:22 AM
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-------------------------
Sometimes you need to run away just to see who will follow you.

Sometimes when I say "I'm okay", I want someone to look me in the eyes, hug me tight and say "I know you are not".

Just because I'm smiling doesn't mean I'm happy.

Edited: 12/19/12 at 6:38 AM by toy123
 
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toy123
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12/19/12 6:36 AM
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I agree with munkster fully. You need to be more open minded. I personally know ladies who wear long sheitals, tight clothes, tons of makeup, let their children read goyesh/non kosher books etc... and send them to the local Bais Yaakov. So there you go there are people in Lakewood who also don't fall into your category of "kosher" people. You don't live in Boro Park/Flatbush so you don't hear what goes on. So get real and realize that Lakewood is not so holy and all is not so rosy in Lakewood!!!


-------------------------
Sometimes you need to run away just to see who will follow you.

Sometimes when I say "I'm okay", I want someone to look me in the eyes, hug me tight and say "I know you are not".

Just because I'm smiling doesn't mean I'm happy.

Edited: 12/19/12 at 6:40 AM by toy123
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/19/12 12:19 PM
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I'm not an expert in Halacha, and I forgot to ask my husband about this (B"N I'll ask him tonight). But I'm sure that there are other poskim who permit TV, since so many frum people have it. I don't have a TV, so I never looked into it. I agree that it can be very harmful. But as I said, so is smoking, and so many frum people smoke.

It's one thing to believe something strongly and to advocate for it passionately. It's another thing to claim that a huge amount of frum Jews are violating halacha. That in itself is assur, as it falls under the prohibition of lashon hara, and speaking against a group of Jews is even worse than speaking against an individual.

Eliyahu Hanavi was very passionately against evil. He asked Hashem to take him to shamayim because his generation couldn't handle such passion. They needed a defender, not an accuser. Our generation needs defenders even more! Whatever choices you make, and however you choose to go lifnim mishuras hadin, let's judge other Jews favorably and find the good in them, even if you disagree with what they do, and even if you choose to live in an insular community and have no contact with them.
 
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mouse
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I forgot to say that a lot (if not all) of what was listed about being frum is really superficial stuff. What counts is what NONE of us can see but OURSELVES. That I think is why I got so angry. I'm sick of being lumped into one frum category or another. I do what I think is right for me at a given time. But to exclude someone due to the "wrong" sheitel or include someone due to the "right" skirt is superficial, dumb, and insulting. There is more to someone's spirituality than a sheitel, skirt, hat, whatever. I have a friend who is not perfect in tzinius yet is such a baalas chesed it would put most people to shame. I guess people don't get it. The superficial stupidities of kippah srugah vs. black hat vs. leather yarmulke vs. streimel.....it's just that superficial stupidities that allows for sinas chinom. If that is what people here are trying to do (and I don't think it's intentional in this case) then there is a special place Hashem has for that sort.....hopefully far, far away from me. I don't look down on others who dress or behave differently than me. In some cases I admire them for what else I know about them or find something small that is good in them and remember that rather than judge what I either don't understand or care for.

Emunahdoj, don't take it personally....I get what you're saying. I just can't agree. I've been lumped into so many groups in the past and excluded so many times from other groups for superficial and MEAN reasons that I just can't hold it in any longer. Basically, I think you got me on the wrong thing at the wrong time and I dumped on you. So, if you or any others feel attacked. Forgive me, please.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/19/12 10:20 PM
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Once again you are saying "i know someone who is not really tznius but she is so great at chesed." My Rebbetzin teaches at a modern orthodox school here and her and her husband told me they here this all day from students at the school and parents- they ask "isn't it better to be a better person and wear pants then mean and wear skirts?" This argument makes no sense. My Rebbetzin and Rabbi try to explain to them that this concept does not makes sense.

There is just Torah. That's it. Torah tells us everything-I am not making this stuff up. TV does NOT fit into Torah and neither does dressing not tsniusly. Obviously I never should have brought this up here cuz you guys are just making me more mad and proving that I seriously need to move into a small area in Israel where everyone feels the same way I do. Even if what I am saying made no sense, you could at least validate me. But what I am saying does make sense.
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/20/12 2:17 AM
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That "small area in Israel where everyone feels the same way you do" simply doesn't exist! Don't you realize that as soon as you show up there you'll be labeled as a second class citizen because: your stockings are not thick enough, or your Yiddish is not good enough, or your skirt, while perfectly tzniusdig, was bought in America, and that's not the style they wear in Eretz Yisrael, or -- fill in the blank. And what are you doing using the Internet? Isn't that assur?!!

I know because I've been there. And I am not at all judging the people who live in such communities. I love them. But I know very clearly that I will never be accepted as one of them. Each person has their own path.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, though.
 
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mouse
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12/20/12 3:37 AM
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OK to answer the chesed with pants issue. Pants are/were considered men's clothing. Now there are women's pants. Men wouldn't be caught dead in them. Therefore there are some (not many from what I see)poskim who say it's ok. But this isn't a black and white issue that's from the torah from what I can tell. Chesed on the otherhand is black and white from the torah. there are no places you can go to that is purelyt tzinius. Even mea shearim has their visitors. Why not stop looking down on so many people and just find something good in every person you meet??? It doesn't mean you have to everything you do, but you can admire someone doing chesed even if they are wearing pants. Since as hopeful mommy said, you won't find perfection everywhere why not make the best of the people around you. Stop beinge so judgemental. It isn't fair to anyone. Only Hashem can judge a woman who wears pants.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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star
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12/20/12 4:52 PM
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actually, leah, i really dont think youre being bothered is coming from a source of yiddishkeit. i think this is just a symptom of bpd, that black and white thinking that makes it so hard to consider anything gray. youre prob a really honest person and its hard to see things that appear grey like tv.
i used to think like that, and still do, but not in this area.


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there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
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emunahdoj
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12/21/12 1:17 AM
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Munkster- A person has the ability to rationalize to make themselves feel better. There are plenty of people who say "I know it is halacha to cover my hair, but I am not there yet." Or whatever the halacha is-they admit it is the right thing to do but say they are not there yet. That is perfectly fine. It is important to grow slowly and not push yourself. It is something to strive for and the person knows it is halacha but they are not holding there yet. But to say it is not halacha-I highly suggest you go to seminary and/or shiurim.

Hopefulmommy-I lived in Israel and no one ever judged me. One time I was sitting with two of my friends and my friend's skirt was above her knee when she sat (against halacha) and a guy came up to her and said "be proper." I thought that was great. It was amazing. I will give up American skirts. I have so many friends from seminary that are American and who live in Israel and they are not having any problems with being judged. As far as the internet goes, we have a filter and therefore it is not assur and my husband uses it for parnassa which makes it not assur. If we move to an area where it is assur then I will get rid of the internet. You say "i kow because i've been there." What do you mean by that?

Star- Thank you for your response...I think you might be onto something. However, it is hard for me to tell when it is the bpd or not. BUT, all my hashkafa and halacha ways of thinking come from the two seminaries I went to...those Rabbaim and Rebbetzins there as well as the Rabbis/Rebbetzins I am close with here. They all have bpd? They say it is against halacha to have a tv in your house against halacha to dress untsniusly
 
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mouse
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I am well educated on the matter. Shiurim won't help this one....I've been to Seminary -- a good one at that. I know what is important and what is not. You are so stuck in this mindset you can't see any other way. It's sad because you're the one who will lose out in the long term. Keeping an open mind is sort of important....even in lakewood.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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HopefulMommy
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Here's what I mean by "I've been there." As a teenager, I lived in a smaller community. That was in the days before the Internet, so I did clothes shopping locally. I was more makpid on tznius than many girls in class, so when I was about to go to New York I was excited that I'd be among other girls who dressed similarly and shared my values. But the looks I got when I came to New York! People were making all kinds of assumptions about me because I didn't buy my clothes in NY and looked different. As a vulnerable teenager I felt very hurt.

Israeli chareidi communities are like that too. Don't get me wrong. The people are wonderful. They would do anything for a Jew in need. They really care. I thought it was very sweet when a chareidi man told me in Yiddish that my baby was too cold. But they also gave me those looks when I carried my baby in a baby backpack, which perfectly normal in my community but apparently not practiced in Yerushalayim. I've davened in some chassidish shuls in Geula, and I loved it there. The people were nice and friendly, and spoke to me in Hebrew because they realized that my Yiddish was not that good. At the same time, they don't consider us frum enough and wouldn't want my kids in their schools. And when IY"H it's time for shidduchim, they would never consider my kids.

Do your friends live in Israeli chareidi communities or in Anglo enclaves?

Honestly, the story of a man making a comment about your friend's skirt bothers me. First of all, being a man, he should have looked away. But even more importantly, it's a grave sin to embarrass somebody in public, much worse than looking at a girl's knees.

More on halacha later, IY"H.
 
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HopefulMommy
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Edited: 12/21/12 at 1:38 PM by HopefulMommy
 
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HopefulMommy
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I asked my husband about the TV issue. He said that these days, no Rav has the power to make a gezeira that applies to all of Klal Yisrael. A Rav can pasken for his own community, or for those who asked him, but in order to prohibit TV he would have to fit it under an existing prohibition because we're not allowed to make new ones.

So if your Rav holds that TV is forbidden that applies to you and your community but doesn't generalize to the rest of the frum world. To give a different example: Ashkenazim are not allowed to eat kitniyos on Pesach. That is the halacha for us. Sefardim, on the other hand, are allowed to eat kitniyos, and that is the halacha for them. Just because something is halacha for one person doesn't mean that it's the halacha for the rest of Klal Yisrael. There are many different shittos on just about everything.

Also, you have to distinguish between a psak halacha and hashkafic advice. Comparing TV to avoda zara is a metaphor, not a halachic statement. Halachically, it doesn't fall into the category of avoda zara, but hashkafically it can be compared to avoda zara.

Hope this clarifies things.
 
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mouse
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12/22/12 11:03 PM
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I'm going to try very hard not to read this thread anymore. It is bringing back bad memories and feelings as to why I prefer the religious yet not "FRUM" lifestyle. (I do cover my hair but I feel more comfortable with the more accepting and less judgemental modern-orthodox crowd....though it isn't perfect there either. As long as there is judgmental behavior going on Moshiach won't come. Judgmental behavior leads to sinas chinom. Seriously....to judge someone because their sheital is the wrong legnth or the skirt is too tight........GIVE ME A BREAK. Do you think the Eemahos covered their hair....I don't think so....But they DID wear nose rings. Perhaps I should get one and say I want to be like the Eemahos. But I ramble....and I'm soured by this thread. So I end here.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/24/12 3:20 AM
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I am not judging anyone. I am saying that I do not want to be around it or BE"H for my kids to be around it. Not wanting to be around something does not mean you are judging it.

Hopefulmommy, thank you for your help and nice words. Sorry you had to go through that when you were younger...sounds like it was very hurtful for you.

What I am saying is, we are children of Hashem. Do you really think Hashem would want us to have a tv in our home? To see those images? Really? And we are pure neshamas, why would we not cover our neshama with appropriate clothing? When something is special it is kept private. I highly recommend reading "To Kindle a Soul" by Rabbi Kelemen....the thing is...the book (especially the tv chapter) became so popular in the NON JEWISH world that he made a separate book called "What they don't want you to know about tv and videos" In the non jewish world a lot of people are starting to realize the negative effects of tv. If non jews are starting to realize the damages of tv...I would hope Jews do. Torah says not to stray after your eyes and your heart and to look at immodest images-this is not possible with a tv in the house. It is just not possible, therefore breaking halacha.

Anyway, enough about this subject. Frustrated enough about it on a daily basis here.
 
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star
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12/24/12 9:34 PM
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leah, i actually always thought movies is a black and white thing, its clearly against halacha, like it says in shema.
then, struggling with deep depression and needing distaction, my t reccomended movies. i called my teacher who called
a very respected well known Rav who said that the most important thing is my mental health, and if my t says that movies can help me, its not a black and white are, its grey. and my teacher agreed. you might want to ask dr price about this, he can prob explain it very well.
i do understand where youre coming from, though.


-------------------------
there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
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emunahdoj
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12/25/12 12:24 AM
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Star, I am SO glad you brought this up. One of my charedi family members in Israel suffers from depression. She asked a huge Rav if it is ok for her to have a tv in the house to distract her and the Rav said yes. In cases like that, I think it is fine. Picuach nefesh always comes first. When I was really depressed years ago the same thing happened to me-I was so depressed that I needed a drug to distract me-tv. So I also asked my therapist and Rav and they gave a heter for that.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/25/12 12:25 AM
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Thank you for saying it clearly says it in the shema and saying you understand where I am coming from. I think we are pretty similar
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/25/12 12:43 AM
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Thanks emunadoj! I got over it . Now that I'm older and not as self-conscious I feel totally comfortable being different, and ignore the stares. Now I love New York, and Yerushalayim. And some of my kids want to move there, so you never know . But I actually love living in my community. It's big enough that I can walk around in a snood and no one turns around, but small enough that I can be myself and don't have to fit some random rigid rules.

If you'd like to really make a difference in the world and convince people to get rid of their TV you need to approach them in a way that makes them feel loved and cared about, and clearly not judged. That requires understanding of where they are coming from and why they have a TV in the first place, and being compassionate when they struggle with their desires, and able to empathize when they share how hard it is for them to get rid of the TV. These skills, by the way, will become very useful when you're parenting teenagers, IY"H.

Getting back to your situation, I think it would help you to shift from the position of a victim -- you're stuck in a place that is not spiritual enough for you -- to a position of an adult who lives in an imperfect world and makes the best choices possible given the circumstances Hashem gave you. In this case, your choices are to move to a different community, which has its own drawbacks, or to stay where you are and see it as a G-d-given mission. If Hashem put you there, there must be something that you're meant to accomplish there. The choice is yours.

 
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getMeOutOfHere
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12/25/12 8:20 PM
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Emunadoj, I understand the desire to live in a community where you fit in, where other people are on the same wavelength. I think it makes it easier to do what you believe is the "right" thing when everyone around you agrees with you and is doing the same thing. Regarding the comment you made about people asking if it is better to wear skirts and treat people poorly or wear pants and do good things... this seems like the classic question of what do you get when you add a "wrong" and a "right." I wouldn't look at it from that approach. Everyone has their own struggles. By looking at what someone does, you don't know what they really believe is right. For example, I may not have my knees covered all the time, but I may still believe that part of tsnius means having your knees covered. I fight my battles, the same way everyone else fights theirs.

Also, there are 613 mitzvos in the torah and for most of them, we don't know the reward and punishment. Hashem wrote the torah specifically in that way, so that we would not be able to decide which mitzvos are more important than others. That are also some clear guidelines about some mitzvos being really important (big 3) and some mitzvos trumping others (pikuach nefesh vs. shabbos). I would not be so quick to discount chesed. Gimilas chesed is listed in davening under one of the mitzvos that people can do without limit and that reward is received both in this world and the next. Doesn't sound too shabby to me.

Regarding some of the communities you mentioned, I think your perspective is a little naive. Yes, in communities with larger "litvish" or "chassidish" populations, maybe more people dress according to halacha and don't have TV's, but how do you feel about:
- Walking into a "frum" store and when taking out a credit card to pay, being told that if you pay by check you won't be charged sales tax
- Being told by a babysitter that she has no more "reportable" spots left. Meaning, she only reports a limited amount of her income to the government. Probably exactly the right amount for her to get all the credits she can and make the most money from the government.
- Being asked to pay for a house partially in cash, to keep the transaction price lower
- Sending your kid to a school where you have to make a "donation" to get a accepted. Where the children of people who give money to the school can get away with anything.
- Young people being in credit card debt so they can live and dress the same way as their peers
- Girls being molested by their "frum" neighbor

I think it's great to live in a place where a lot of people have values that are similar to your own. However, no matter where you live, you and your kids are going to be faced with people who do things differently than you do. You can do your best to shelter yourself and your kids, but to a certain degree it's impossible. Teach your kids to appreciate torah the way you do. Explain your values. Make sure they know it's ok to ask questions. When you live amongst people who are different, you are often forced to constantly reexamine yourself and your values, and may find that you are more sincere in your yiddishkeit than if you had been living in a larger, more sheltered community.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/26/12 1:04 AM
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Hopefulmommy- What you said is very helpful. You are really like a therapist. I seriously take what you say and use it and think about it in my daily life...and it help a lot.. Are there any books that you can recommend? That you enjoyed reading and that helped you? "and being compassionate when they struggle with their desires, and able to empathize when they share how hard it is for them to get rid of the TV. These skills, by the way, will become very useful when you're parenting teenagers, IY"H." When you say that...that's exactly what I'm worried about. I would be a mean bad mom. Your kids are so lucky to have you as a mom-you are understanding and empathetic.

 
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emunahdoj
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12/26/12 1:11 AM
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Getmooutofhere- Thanks for your post. Thanks for being understanding. That makes sense- that by looking at what someone does, it does not mean that is what they think is right. That is very interesteing. I have been thinking about that lately-trying to figure out if someone can do something they don't think is right. My husband and I were wondering if it is possible for a person to know Torah is true but not follow it-to be secular. He said he had a Rabbi that said that it is not possible to know that Torah is true but not follow it.

Those things you mentioned are very scary-world feels awful and hopeless. When there are "frum" people that are molestors, etc.
 
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getMeOutOfHere
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12/26/12 7:06 AM
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Emunahdoj, don't know who ur rabbi is and how he feels comfortable speaking for the entire Jewish population. From my own personal experience I can tell u with 100% certainty that there r ppl who do things they don't believe are right. Every person has their own reason.

Also, I find it interesting that of everything I mentioned you gravitate toward frum people being molesters, when most of the other examples I gave had to do with honesty. Why are you so much more bothered by frum ppl having a TV in their house or not dressing tsniusly than b ppl who act dishonestly? Believe me, it is horrible that there are frum molesters, but there are, even in Yerushalayim. Personally, I think that aside from violating torah, ppl who r dishonest or cheat the government ruin the reputation of all frum ppl. Why is it that ppl just have to put on the levush and then their actions don't matter?
 
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LAKEWOODER
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12/26/12 9:02 PM
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I'm not sure where you live,but it seems that you have this idealistic picture of the town of Lakewood....sure there's lots of torah learning and beautiful chesadim going on in the town,but believe me there's WAY more than that!!! Either you were misinformed or it may simply be that the grass is always greener on the other side,because there's an overabundance of gashmiyus in the town....more than any other out of town community that exists.....believe me,I moved to this town not for the torah,but for all the gashmiyus it offers....I wanted a big beautiful house with a huge backyard and lawn at an affordable price and I got just that!!!Sure there are lots of serious torah learners,but Lakewood aint that simplistic little town without any outside influences that it was twenty years ago....you'd also be very niave to believe that just because you want to be ultra frum and "screened" that you think you'd be getting your kids into school....(Baruch Hashem I was one of the LUCKY ones who didn't have any trouble getting my children into schools )Yet I know some sincerely good people who could not get their children into school....yet the people you would deem unworthy because of their dress etc. had absolutely no problem because they are people with money or people who have an "important" family name.... I would love to live in a community like yours where EVERYONE is accepted!!! How beautiful and how Jewish!! What a TRUE kiddush Hashem!! P.S. my children are exposed to Xmas since my neighbors celebrate the Holiday and we get trick or treaters @ our door every Halloween....
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/26/12 9:19 PM
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Thanks emunadoj! I really recommend all the Inner Torah books. I've grown so much through Inner Torah.

You have plenty of time to work on yourself and develop the empathy and compassion you'll need in parenting. The main thing is to be clear on your goals, and work on them one tiny step at a time.

I think you're looking to the frum community for emotional security. But there are no guarantees in any community, or in any family. True emotional security can only come from your relationship with Hashem.
 
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emunahdoj
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12/27/12 5:04 PM
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Getmeoutofhere- I like what you said. I agree, I do think it's possible for someone to know something is wrong and still do it.

Lakewooder- Hehe, I get to here it straight from the "lakewooder"....thanks for your post...helped me look at things differently. " P.S. my children are exposed to Xmas since my neighbors celebrate the Holiday and we get trick or treaters @ our door every Halloween.... " That made me laugh out loud!

Hopefulmommy- I think you are right on the mark. And I think you could seriously be a therapist!!! "I think you're looking to the frum community for emotional security. But there are no guarantees in any community, or in any family. True emotional security can only come from your relationship with Hashem." That is so powerful. I am going to go through my days thinking about that. I also ordered one of the "inner torah" books. Thank you.
 
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HopefulMommy
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12/27/12 11:55 PM
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It takes too many years to become a therapist, and I don't the time or the motivation. I think I'll stick to writing for now . There is a lot on emotional security in my book.

Enjoy Inner Torah! And feel free to ask me if you have any questions on it (although I can't guarantee that I'll have an answer).
 
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emunahdoj
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12/28/12 12:42 AM
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What I meant was- It is as if you are a therpiast. Not that you should become one. Yes I'm very excited for the book! I see how connected to Hashem you are so I'm excited for the book!
 
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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
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1/17/13 6:33 PM
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I really appreciated reading this thread. I think lots of people are struggling with "fitting in"and feeling "safe" vs. taking the risk for personal self expression. I am saddened by the pressure to conform in the Jewish world, but can also understand the fear of exposing ourselves and our children to the "outside world". Unfortunately, I have seen many marriages ruined by drugs, alcohol and the internet. I have also seen marriages ruined due to people feeling repressed and put into a box they are not comfortable with. I don't think there are easy answers, but feel privileged to be part of a forum that is based on honest, supportive dialogue.
a lynn
 
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