Login
Questions or Comments!
admin@frumsupport.com

Get FrumSupport News! Join our mailing list.
Email:


Search

Navigation:

 Tehilim List  < Refresh >
TOPIC TITLE: Open letter to Daddy dear.
Created On 11/25/05 11:29 AM
Topic View:

View thread in raw text format


bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

11/25/05 11:29 AM
User is offline

Dear Daddy,

I wish I had the courage to actually send this letter to you. I wish I had the courage to say these words face to face, but I don't so instead I write anonymously.

I have spoken to you before, but only in my head. I have things to say that I have never verbalised. There are words rushing around inside me, words which I have tried so hard to suppress, words I wish did not need to be said, words which cause my heart to stop just by thinking of them.

But today, they must come out. I will no longer allow these words to stay stuck inside like a festering wound.

This a long introduction, and I wonder if its because I am really loathe to put my feelings out there. Black and white. I am scared. I am frightened of how I will feel when I say these words to you. But I will. I will do it for myself. I will do it, because it must be done.

I will do it, because you can't hurt me anymore.
I am an adult. I have control, and I will not let you hurt me.

This is really difficult for me to say. But I am strong and I will say it.
There is a terrible rage deep inside my heart. An anger so profound that its intensity frightens me.

When I first recalled that it was you, I refused to allow my mind to believe it.
I called my therapist and told her that I cannot live and "know" at the same time.
If I "know" I die.
But I am alive.
And I "know".
She cared, and so I am alive.

She cared. A stranger.
You didn't care. My father.

As I write these words, a great tide of emotion wells up inside. Sadness.
Deep sorrow for the daddy I never had.
When I first remembered what you did to me, the worst feeling was the sense of betrayal.

I always wanted you to love me.
I wanted to be a little girl whose father cared about her.
But you didn't.
You couldn't.
And you wouldn't.

You wouldn't get the help you needed so that your daughter could survive.
I thought I was special.
I believed that when you crept into my room at night that I was daddy's special little girl.
You loved me. Daddy you really loved me. Just not in the right way. and that bad love destroyed me.

I never had a chance after that.
You destroyed my Neshomo, because you couldn't control yours.
I was only five years old.
An innocent child.
You were a man.
And you destroyed me.

Your few moments of selfishness are my endless years of suffering.
You stole my childhood.
Every child deserves to be one, don't you think?

I believed I did not deserve even the most natural thing.
To be a child.

You took that part of me, and you can never give it back.

Why Daddy?
Why Daddy dear?

Why did you hate me so?
I was your baby daughter.
Don't you remember?
You said you loved me.
Don't you remember?

But you lied.
And you continue to lie.

I am nothing to you am I?
you don't even bother calling me anymore.

Why?
Is it because you are ashamed?
Are you scared I might tell someone?
Are you afraid of Hashems anger when you die?
Are you thinking of the punishment you deserve?

It is not too late Daddy.

I still love you, do you know that?
For all the pain and suffering you have caused, stupid me still cares about her selfish father.

I HATE myself for still needing you.
I am stupid and wicked for still wanting a daddy.

But I do.

I am full of rage, yet I still care about you.

There is still time father dear.
As long as you are alive there is time for forgiveness.

Don't wait.
It might be too late.

I don't want you to be punished in Olam Haboh.

Please .
Don't wait.
It might be too late.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

11/28/05 4:29 PM
User is offline

This has been a very frustrating weekend.

I posted this Oh so difficult letter, and then the server was down, so I could not get a response. (i'm not complaining, jst expressing my emotions)

Thanks Ernie, for yours, I just read it.

I'm doing some really difficult work on this subject (father).
It is quite draining.

have lots more to say, will come bk later.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

11/28/05 9:38 PM
User is offline

The most difficult part of my struggle, is my profound sense of loneliness.
I often feel lost, as though I am hovering just out of reach. I look at people and they seem to be so far away.

I know that these symptoms are of direct consequence to child molestation, yet often I can't wrap my mind around the severity of my feelings.

I feel that no one cares.
That if my own father and mother cannot care, how could anyone else. And for that matter, why "should" anyone else?

I think that my biggest problem is the split between the thinking part of my brain, and the feeling part of it.
I read alot, and I have read most of the literature on child abuse. So that intelectually, I "know" that what I am feeling is "normal" for this kind of trauma, but the other part of my brain refuses to acknowledge or accept the unacceptable.

I think that the deepest scars which still remain, is the feeling of being unlovable, as well as the knowledge that there is no one on this earth whom I can trust. People have to work so hard at earning my trust, that they give up after a while. (I would too)

I don't believe that anyone has my best interests at heart. I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
if someone gives me a compliment, my first thought is:
"Why is he saying something nice?, There must be a good reason for him to be lying."

i have always felt bad, ugly and wicked and even though people tell me to the contrary, I will still gaze in the mirror, and see wickedness.

These feelings have grown with me since childhood.
they are not easily dismissed.

I know that they are mostly projection from my father, yet I still feel sad and lonely and stupid most of the time.

I am working very hard on trying to heal, and be a healthy mother for my children.
I cannot as yet, heal for myself (my therapist believes that one day I will be able to do it for myself )

One last comment.
As much as I talk about the suffering I endure, I am still in awe at the amount of strength we as humans possess, and how much suffering one person can endure.
I can watch myself from afar and monitor my progress.
And I am truly amazed at how far I have come.....but only.....and I repeat ONLY, with the neverending love and support from both my husband and therapist.

Thank you
for listening.
B.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



downsyndrome
Supporter

Posts: 71
Joined: Nov 2004

11/28/05 9:54 PM
User is offline View users profile

Bubbles,
You have made my heart turn sommersaults when reading your most recent postings. I am crying and bleeding for you, and I cannot begin to imagine the emotional torture that you endure every waking moment of your life. I don't know what would be appropriate words of comfort, so I will just offer you a bracha from the bottom of my heart: I hope you heal completely and you can be a truly happy human being.
Please go to the mirror and give yourself a hug from me.
SS
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



ernie55B
Senior Supporter

Posts: 419
Joined: Mar 2005

11/28/05 10:57 PM
User is offline

Bubbles,

I just want to say that your husband must be a very special person to be able to provide you with that unending love and support that is so helpful to you.

The reason my marriage is ending now is that my wife could not be loving and supportive through my depression.
My therapist is convinced that with a loving, caring spouse, I could have been a much happier person all these years.
She still believes that could become a reality for me.

In the meantime, I am glad you can express your feelings here; I hope it is helpful to you.
My sense is that it is.
Keep your chin up!

Ernie
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



silent
Supporter

Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 2005

11/29/05 12:02 AM
User is offline

Bubbles,

I think of you often.
Very often.

Continue to take good care of yourself,
Still Silent
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

11/29/05 9:25 AM
User is offline

Thanks alot DS, I will take that hug!
And the Brocha too.

Ernie, yes, it is very true. Without my husbands tenacious support, I would definately be 6 feet under by now. I could not have held on, and even currently could not carry on without his deep hearted caring.

Sometimes I can't help but digress to my old way of thinking that no one cares, but lately more often than not, I have been having some feelings that my husband really really does care about what happens to me.
After 5 years of therapy don't u think its about time?

Ernie, of course you can find someone who has more ability to share your suffering and work together with you, as opposed to against.
You deserve some happiness, and I really believe that if you continue on your path of caring, insight and Chochma with regards to the welfare of your children, you will find some peace for yourself too.

From what I know of you, just by reading your posts, you are an intelligent "caring" person. Caring being the operative word.
My belief is that human beings can overcome mountains as long as they have support, and feel that someone cares about them.
You have those qualities.
You care about people and you understand them.
I am sure you will succeed in finding someone who can give as much as they can take. (taking is also important, but i'll leave that for another post!)

In the mean time try your best, try to think positive and u will see things will change.

One word of caution.
Dr. Joy Brown, (WOR radio) has a rule which cannot be overlooked. She calls it the "one year rule". Her belief is that one MUST wait at least one year from the time of their divorce before one can start dating again.!
Keep it in mind!
tc
B
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

11/29/05 9:28 AM
User is offline

Dear Still Silent,

I am so glad to hear from you. (Didn't want to "nudge" and ask where u were)
thanks for your words of comfort.

How are you managing?
I have been wondering how you are doing.
Let me know whats going on , if u can.

hope to hear from u soon.
bubbles.

(sorry u r still silent)
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



frumtherapist
Supporter

Posts: 65
Joined: Nov 2005

11/30/05 1:40 PM
User is offline

Bubbles-
Your letter to your father was profound and so poignant. You expressed your pain and your conflicted feelings and thoughts so clearly. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the act of writing those words alone made all the pain and anger and hurt melt away? But it doesn't - those feelings are still there, and some of them might linger within you for a long time yet. The passage of time does do something important though (along with good therapy and healthy living!); it allows some of the pain to get blunted, and allows you to find meaningfulness within your experiences; ways for you to begin to see your own special uniqueness as a result of your experiences and your injuries. You should never define yourself as being simply damaged goods - some of the most productive, prolific, and sensitive, special people on this planet achieved their place in life as a direct result of their pain and fragility. There IS meaningfullness and wholeness that is within your reach - but WITHIN - your father's reactions and behaviors will never provide that for you - YOU can, over time, provide this for you.
I am a Kohein, and with the powers G-d invested in Kohanim, I'd like to send you my blessings and most sincere wishes for inner peace, wholeness, and a measure of serenity.
Sincerely,
Frumtherapist
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Heth
Junior Supporter

Posts: 9
Joined: Jan 2006

1/16/06 3:29 PM
User is offline

DEar bubbles. Thank you so much for sharing your letter. I have suffered in the same way as you- not identical- but from the same source. I also do a lot of writing- i encourage you to do even more. It is a kind of soul cleansing. We have to get this stuff out becuase if it stays inside it makes us very ill- as you know.
My father is dying now- he is at the end of his life- and he and i have had a lot of talks about what went on. I am determined that he is going to leave, and he is going to leave me- feeling a little more whole .
I yearned for the father - just like you- so i know exactly how that feels. we just keep chasing the rainbow.
HAng on in there, you are on the right tracks, you will survive. H


-------------------------
Mother of 3 , psychiatric social worker
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

1/17/06 10:43 AM
User is offline

Dear Heth,
Thank you for responding.
I had begun to believe that I was the only person out there who has suffered in this way.
Thanks alot for the comfort that affords me.
I am sorry to hear about your father.
Sorry on both levels.
Sorry for what he did, and sorry that he is dying.

Has he really admitted to what he did?
Wow! that must be really empowering for you.
Can you say a little more about it? Are you having to push him to talk about what happened?
I ask these questions, but of course only say what you feel you want to. I hope I am not pressuring you in any way.
I just feel kind of "excited??" that I have finally met another frum person whose father behaved in the way mine did.

you say you are a social worker. Are you a therapist? Are you in therapy now? Sorry, i have so many questions, but I will stop asking them.
I am sure you will offer whatever you feel you need to.

I truly hope your conversations will bring you some measure of peace and wholeness.
Will you be able to forgive?
Do you even want to forgive?

My father has not spoken to me since I told him I remembered, which was about 7 months ago.
My mother continued to talk to me. However two weeks ago, she decided she couldn't cope with the enormity of what I was accusing my father of. I am no longer remaining silent, and it is too difficult for her.
She is basically saying to me, "either keep quiet, and bury it all once again, or our relationship is over"

I cry.
I feel a deep sadness.
In a sense I am being blamed and then punished for my fathers atrocities.
My father denies everything, therefore he is pure.
I am no longer worthy of having my mother speak to me.

But I refuse to stay silent.
Even if I lose the small piece of my mother which was available, I will never again bury my pain and sorrow.

My husband and children come first.
And they need a mother.
No more mothers of silence.

Today I am a mother with a voice.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Heth
Junior Supporter

Posts: 9
Joined: Jan 2006

1/17/06 4:19 PM
User is offline

Hello Bubbles,
MY father has had a few strokes- so the windows of opportunity to speak to him and have his memory clear have been few. But i have nevertheless taken advantage of them. You asked me if he admitted to everything he has done. The simple answer is no, he has acknowledged that he has been difficult and that he had done things that he reggretted. But no specifics. I was grateful for even that much. I did tell him that I have been very very angry with him.
He actually told me that he loved me ( only 48 yrs too late ), and that he was proud of me. How my soul could have flown if i had once heard that in all the years.
Forgive and forget are very big words for me- I have trouble with kibbud av ve em. Im not sure what hashem expects of me.
Yes im a therapist, and a social worker, and I manage a psychiatric rehab team. - Does it mean that I am in any less pain or that i can heal myself - NO. It means that i can help others and understand them maybe a little better. Yes I am in therapy- with a psychoanalyst. I dont respond well to any other type. HAve made tremendous life changes and beneffited enormously from the therapy.
Regarding silence. I actually dont think its an option to remain silent. You cannot- because that denies your souls the right to object to how it was treated.
Sadly, in our world theres a lot of stigma to " telling ". Thats so sad. BUt the more we tell- i believe thew more it allows other to come forward.
I salute you and admire your bravery to be a mother first, to put your mothers shame where it belongs, and to continue pouring otu your soul.
heth


-------------------------
Mother of 3 , psychiatric social worker
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
Psychologist

Posts: 914
Joined: Feb 2005

1/17/06 11:28 PM
User is offline

Heth-
Thank you for posting and sharing your thoughts, feelings and inspiration.
a lynn
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

1/21/06 11:07 PM
User is offline

Hi Heth,
sorry for the delayed response.
I echo the words of Dr. Lynn. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

I am sorry that your father does not have the ability to speak the truth. But I understand your being happy with even a little acknowledgement. My father does not even have the courage for that.

I was wondering about Kibud Av Ve'aim.
What am I required according to Halocho. I will call my Rov for advice. I basically have not been communicating with my parents for the last few months. Is that considered not doing Kibud Av? i'm not sure.

Of course you do not own less pain because you are a therapist! I admire you for the work you do. My plan is to do just that. I too believe that I have the capacity and unfortunately the experience to empathise, and understand anothers pain.

Have you been aware of the abuse your whole life? Or did you suddenly remember?
Also why is psychoanylitical therapy better as opposed to other kinds of therapies?
Do you find it difficult to deal with other peoples problems and pain, whilst you are trying to cope with your own?
would love to hear more about your journey of recovery.

Thanks again for reaching out.
Bubbles
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Heth
Junior Supporter

Posts: 9
Joined: Jan 2006

1/22/06 3:26 PM
User is offline

HI Bubbles,
Dont know what to say to you about the kibbud av ve em buisiness. I would be interested to hear what your rav says.
In fact id be interested to hear from anyone who wanted to share what their rav says on that one.
As far as my case is concerned, shortly after we were first married, my husband and i went to consult a dayan - we lived in england at that time. HIs psak was to go and live in Israel, very far away from both of my parents and have as little to do with them as possible. In all honesty i did not implement that imediately, it took us a while. In further honesty i never implemented that with my father- only with my mother.
I think that the Dayan made such a definite psak because he was the one who dealt with my parents " get " and he knew all the details.
You ask me if i have always been aware of my abuse. No. I was however always aware from a very young age that my family was different, that things went on in my family that didnt happen in others. I didnt know it was abuse. I felt it wasnt right. I always knew something was wrong- but it was not until a therpaist labelled what happened as abuse did i begin to " get it "
It wasnt a single event- as maybe your was- so i didnt have flashbacks or a blocked memory. I can remember everything quite clearly.
I was diagnosed early on as suffering from PTSD. In fact it was repeated trauma over many years.
Why psychoanalysis- well I am sorry if this sounds offensive to anyone- but anything else ie, cognitive behavioural, etc etc, would have been like putting on a band aid. I have been putting on band aids and masks my whole life- i needed to go back there to realise it- to understand it for what it was, at times to relive the pain. All this is psychotheraputic work.
Frankly also i can put most therapsts round my little finger. I pay a quarter of my salary to my therapist and thats a lot of money- but its worth every cent.
HAve you read the book " the courage to heal " ?
Bubbles- one more thing-
I have all the qualifications one can get - looks great on paper- but I played at being a therapist until i had done my own experiential work. Then i got real.
CAn i detatch from my clients pain.- No not always- i dont always want to. Im the type that gets right " in there " with the client, have been known to cry with them. However i have very definite proffessional borders, and well practsied techniques at separating work from home. I have a good back - up system, excellent supervision and a secretary that i love.

About your father- do you really think he has no insight whatsoever into what he did? Do you think he could deep dowmn be afraid of you? Is your mother afraid of you? Do you ahve any sibs?
TAke care of yourself, keep writing, heth


-------------------------
Mother of 3 , psychiatric social worker
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



ernie55B
Senior Supporter

Posts: 419
Joined: Mar 2005

1/22/06 6:49 PM
User is offline

Hello Heth & Bubbles,

I am glad you both found someone you can both relate to, especially you Bubbles since you do not have the training to deal with this issue as Heth does.
You both raised the question of kibbud av; I am not a Rav, but the Shulchan Aruch is clear on the fact that every married woman
is exempt from kibbud av because she is considered to be under the 'rishus' or authority of her husband.
Additionally, in a case where a parent has lost their mind and the child cannot reasonably deal with that parent, they are permitted to have no contact with the parent.
Certainly, your cases qualify as situations where your fathers have to be considered to have lost their minds - to have done what they did- and even if you were not married you would not be required to have contact with them.

I am amazed, Bubbles, that with all you have been through, you are still concerned about this. It is a testament as to what kind of person you are, and I am sure that in that zichus, you will get through this terrible crisis.
.

Wishing you both well,
Ernie
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

1/28/06 11:59 PM
User is offline

Hi Ernie,
great seeing you around here.
hope all is well (or at least better)
Thanks for your encouragement.

Hi Heth,
Yes I have read the courage to heal, actually I read it again every once in a while.
When my therapist first suggested it, I read it, but felt no connection. Now unfortunately I can relate to most of the book. It is helpful.

the abuse I suffered actually occured over a period of a few years, begining at around age four. I remember it, but only through a fog. Almost as though I am looking through a sheer curtain. It seems real, but at times it seems ludicrous.
The clearest memories i have are when I did emdr. During those sessions I relieved the abuse detail by detail. I re- experienced the actual emotions from that time. I dont really understand why it all seems so vague, and why I am ready to doubt myself at the slightest opportunity.

About my family: I am one of 8 children. I have only told one sister about my father and she believes that it happened. I dont believe that he did it to anyone else in the family. It seems that I was the Korban.

I was always a quiet, non demanding type of child. Always ready to please. Always wanting to do the right thing. It fits the profile of victim, and i suppose that on some level my father knew who to choose. I am not his only daughter, he had plenty to choose from.

"Do you think he is scared? Do you think that deep down he knows? "

I wish I could answer these questions.
I wish he would admit to his wrongdoings. It would save me alot of emotional pain, as well as the constant doubting of myself. The feeling that perhaps I am the crazy one, or that I am so in need of attention that I would stoop to accusing my father of such atrocities.

He hasnt spoken to me, and if I dont initiate a conversation, he will most likely live the rest of his life with no thougt to his daughter and grandchildren.
I 'm not sure if it matters anymore.
Do i really need to know?
Do i really need his admittance?
Frankly, i probably don't any more.
Most of the time I believe it happened, and the rest of the time....well... i can live with "the rest of the time"

my mother is incapable of dealing with this horror.
She cant face it. (understandably)
So she can offer very limited (if any) support.

take care
B.

 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/29/06 12:51 AM
User is offline

In Forrest Gump, Jenny throws rocks at the house where she had been abused as a child. She runs out of rocks, and Forrest says: "Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks to throw."

The Rabbis say: Throw a stick into the air, and it will return to its source.

You've already thrown the stick, and it found its mark. How many times do you have to keep throwing it, over and over again?

You've come a long way, and with G-d's help you'll keep on going, step by step.

Perhaps a cure to bad love is good love, by loving and helping another Jew, which leads to loving G-d and doing His Mitzvos.

May there be only good news from now on.



Edited: 1/29/06 at 2:24 AM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

1/30/06 6:52 AM
User is offline


Have you ever been abused by your father Gad?
Do you know the feeling of betrayal?
Betrayal from the very person who according to the natural way of things is supposed to protect you?
Can you comprehend the feelings of loneliness?
Abandonement?
sadness?
sorrow?
pain?
tears?

The knowlwdge that your caregivers have been using your body for their satisfaction?
The pain of that knowledge?
Have you ever had someone creep into your bedroom in the darknesss of the night, when you are at your most vulnerable?
Have you experienced the fear a four year old might feel when she is violated in her sleep?

Rage?
Anger?
Helplessness?
Hopelessness?

Have you Gad?
Please tell me,
Have you?

Because if you have not (and i hope for your sake that you haven't) then please don't ask me how many times I "must keep on throwing the stick".

I will do it as many times as it takes.

If you are getting bored reading my posts, which may become repetitive at times I will admit, then I have a suggestion:

Do yourself a favour:

Don't read!
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



silent
Supporter

Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 2005

1/30/06 4:48 PM
User is offline

Thank you Bubbles!
I second the motion.

And its not only Gad, unfortunately this attitude, ignorance and innocense, is rampant amongst us in the frum community.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/31/06 12:40 AM
User is offline

I appologize for the hurt, it was unintended.

I cannot blame you for throwing the stick over and over. As you said so clearly, and Silent seconded it, someone who did not feel that pain, G-d forbid, cannot understand it. I am giving my opinion as an outsider, and I welcome your opinion in response.

I remember a Chasid by the name of Zushia Partisan. He fought in the underground (hence the name Partisan) in World War 2, and he lost his entire family in the holocaust. He was devastated, and wiped out. I heard that when he talked to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, the Rebbe told him that whenever he had the sad thoughts, he should immediately dance.
I remember how this chasid was the life of the party. He would always lead the singing and make people smile and laugh. He even made it to the front page of the New York Times, in a picture of him dancing with Israeli soldiers, and he had a bottle of vodka in one hand and a soup ladle in the other.

I am not comparing his pain to yours, and I am not saying that everyone can be like him. But I feel, again expressing my opinion as an outsider, that when we dwell on sad thoughts, we are sad; and when we try to push those thoughts out of our mind and focus on happy thoughts, that this can help alot.

May you have only good news from now on.





Edited: 1/31/06 at 7:36 AM by gad
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



silent
Supporter

Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 2005

1/31/06 1:18 AM
User is offline

Gad!

I should forgive you, because you are obviously unfamiliar with the teritory which you are trespassing. But it is difficult!

This is not a matter of willing the past out of one's mind.
For survivors, the past has very real affects on the present. A magic stick cannot be waved in order to remove the current pain. If it were so easy, we (all survivors) wouldn't need to be communicating through this venue.

The future will be better after living through the present feelings, emotions and pain, yes even if that means reliving and re-experiencing the source of the present feelings. Ignoring that there is a problem at hand and that there is a source to it, suppressing those feelings, drives the pain deeper into the psyche.

Can you imagine! Not only should other members of the community push aside this 'issue' amongst us, but the survivors themselves should pretend it never happened and does not exist.
Get over it.
Life goes on.
Pull yourself together.

It would make me more comfortable here if you would speak with a little humility. Ignorance may be blissful, but it is extremely offensive here. I would suggest that you do some homework before you respond here. Read a little bit about raape, child s abuse, mental illness and sexuality, s addiction, and other such topics.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



silent
Supporter

Posts: 29
Joined: Nov 2005

1/31/06 1:48 AM
User is offline

Well Gad,

I see that just before I posted my response, you edited your post.
Your refurbished post is not quite as lethal as the original. But I believe the underlying message in my response still applies.

Yes, the prescribed way to rid oneself of unwanted thoughts is to substitute them with others (Tanya). But, I believe theRabbi touched on this and explained that there are times that it is okay and necessary to work through the thoughts.

In any case, these are emotions! These are feelings! When you will read up on the topis, you will see that there are automatic responses of the body (wich were not even mentioned.) I am no Tzaddik and I have not yet learned to control the emotions that enter my heart, and definitely not the responses of the body to perceived danger. The Torah does not command on emotions! Even Ahavas Hashem is not a command directed towards the heart, but rather as, I believe, Rashi states.

I hope you begin to understand the magnitude of the life issue at hand.
In our community.
In our schools.
In your backyard.

You can either turn a blind eye or acknowledge that this perversion and pain does exist, that it is real, and can't just be waived away.

You may want to consider spending some of your enthusiastic energy on educating the public, our Rabbis, teachers, mentors, parents, and yes somehow the children of what is out there and how to approach it. And the approach should definitley be in a much more gentle manner than you have taken up.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

1/31/06 7:33 AM
User is offline

Your points are well taken.

Refuah Shileima Bikoroiv.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

1/31/06 10:39 AM
User is offline

silent!
I have nothing more to add.
Every eloquent word you write is exactly to the point.
Thank you!

Unfortunately I didnt read Gad's unedited post.
But I too resent this attitude of "get over it already" and "stop throwing the stick"

Would one say that to a person who breaks a limb?
"get over it already.....stop limping.......how long is it taking!"

I doubt Gad you would say that to an invalid.

You know something else?
I dont want to dance!
I dont want to sing, and hold a bottle of vodka in my hand!
I dont want to be the life and soul of the party!

Is that so hard to understand?
Is it difficult to comprehend that my heart and soul have been abused and that I need time to heal and become whole once again?

No! I do not wish to ignore, bury and supress those pained parts of my being. I do not wish to dance and sing and pretend.
I refuse to stay silent any longer.
My silence has almost destroyed me, the burden too much for me to carry alone.
Now finally after years of internal emotional pain I am begining to find a way to release the sadness.

Please dont stop us Gad from expressing our pain.
This forum has been created for exactly this.
It is necessary, and I have alot of Hakoras Hatov for the administrators and others who give of their time to be here and listen.

Allow us this venue of expression.
It is important so that we can be wholesome healthy mothers of Klal Yisroel.

The community needs to hear.
The community should not keep on saying: "This does not happen to us"

It does happen.
It has happened.
It continues to happen.

I am witness to the fact that S. abuse is a horiffic fact in our community, and the only way to stop it, is by first being aware.

Don't keep on pushing the community's head into the sand.

We need to be heard!!
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Heth
Junior Supporter

Posts: 9
Joined: Jan 2006

1/31/06 4:01 PM
User is offline

Say what you need to say Bubbles, and say it out loud. IN fact say it for all those who cant say it. For those who have to keep silent- out of fear.
Say whatever you feel. You were silenced for so long. You cannot be silenced any more.
I have been given this religious trip many times.
" laugh- when you want to cry"
" pull yourself together "
" you can control your own depression "
All i can say is hashem yerachem. I only hope that the people who say this sort of thing are never in the positions we are in . Its some kind of religious superiority trip- and the best thing to do is ignore it and not give it a platform.
I will tell you a story.
After my first child was born i had so much anxiety and fear about parenting- because of what i had experienced. I became quite depressed. A friend came over to see me and she told me to pull myself together as i had always wanted a child. She told me i could control my feelings.
I just nodded at her- i didnt have the stregnth to argue.
Some years later this same friend had her 5th child and she became clinically depressed and was admitted to hospital. I went to see her. She couldnt believe i had gone to see her. She asked me how could i ever forgive her for what she had said to me. I told her that i definitely forgave her , because she said what she did out of ignorance, and i knew she would never have said it if she had realised how i was feeling and how bad it was. We are now best of friends.
HUg to you, hang on in there, Heth


-------------------------
Mother of 3 , psychiatric social worker
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



ernie55B
Senior Supporter

Posts: 419
Joined: Mar 2005

1/31/06 10:11 PM
User is offline

To Bubbles,Heth,Silent & Gad,

My therapist told me she heard froma prominent Rav in Woodmere that people who suffer or have suffered from abuse, are experiencing their own personal Holocaust. Maybe worse. During the Holocaust, those who survived had at least one positive thing on their side- the fact that they were experiencing the tzoros as a community. They at least had each other.

Abuse victims frequently have to suffer by themselves. Especially children who are too frightened or are unable to share their
horrible experiences.

To have the one person who is supposed to be there to protect his little girl more than anyone on the planet, be the very one to
to destroy that little girl's soul and her faith in humanity, is beyond comprehension.

I hope and pray that I am wrong, but I don't see how anyone EVER gets over that.

If the frum community tries to sweep things like this under the rug, it will no doubt continue to happen.
Telling the victims in essence to get over it, is to deny the magnitude of what happened to them and minimizes some of the guilt of the perpetrators of these horrendous crimes.

You women continue to speak out; it can only help yourselves and others.
Gad, you daven for them that they should have menuchas hanefesh.

Just my opinion as an outside observer.

Ernie

 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



bubbles
Supporter

Posts: 114
Joined: Jun 2005

1/31/06 10:33 PM
User is offline

Ernie, you are so sweet.
Thank you for your understanding.
I am amazed at how well you comprehend something you have never experienced.

It means so much to me, to know that although you have not been abused, you still choose to acknowledge my pain, and stick up for all of us who have been victims at the hands of uncaring people.

My T has also used that analogy to the holocaust. Somehow human beings have the strength to survive when they struggle together with others.
It is the loneliness which destroys.
The silence.
The terrible burden one carries alone.
Unity heals.
Secrecy destroys.

Thank you Ernie.
And thanks for offering Gad advice. Yes davening for Menuchas Hanefesh is a good begining. I also appreciate your terminology.
Refuah Shelaima makes me seem like a sick person.

B"H I am not.
I endure suffering of the soul is all.
Therefore Menuchas Hanefesh sounds alot more appropiate and gentle.

Hope you are feeling good yourself.
B.

Dear Heth,
thanks for your encouragement, and for sharing your best friends story.
Its true, people either dont understand or are not willing to try and understand.



 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



ernie55B
Senior Supporter

Posts: 419
Joined: Mar 2005

2/1/06 7:42 AM
User is offline

Hi B,

I am happy that I can say a few words of caring that mean so much to you.
I think as many have expressed here, depressed people have a certain greater level of sensitivity to other people's feelings than most people do.

Also, although nothing like you experienced, I have had my share of tzoros in this life.
Exactly 18 years ago this Sunday, I personally buried my one day old baby girl.
I can fill my head with happy thoughts from today till next year, but the pain of that day will never go away.

Yes, menuchas hanefesh makes alot more sense as a bracha. Your body is B"H healthy.
It is your nefesh that is in tormoil and feels ill.
When we make a me'shebayrach, we first say refuas HANEFESH and then refuas haguf.
I believe this points to the fact that the needs of the nefesh are greater.

Keep writing, B, and Silent. Maybe it will help you to know that Ernie is with you in your
tza'ar.
More important, know that HKB"H is with you.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



ernie55B
Senior Supporter

Posts: 419
Joined: Mar 2005

2/1/06 7:47 AM
User is offline

Hello Gad,

I am sure you didn't intend this to come out this way, but think about the awful message your story sends to youngsters today.
If you are in emotional pain, take a bottle of Vodka and dance it away.
Nice.

Ernie
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Torsalicious613
Senior Supporter

Posts: 461
Joined: Mar 2005

2/25/06 8:16 PM
User is offline

k guys all i can say is the only way to get over or rid of your feelings is to talk about them. some people may say i talk or write too much and that may be true. but i vouch for it. it cleanses he sould and purifies your mind, and if you do it the right way, it can make you feel a lot better than you did before. personally, i don't drink, and i am only starting to rediscover my dancing abilities that have been pent up for so long. it would be nice if we all lived in a world of ourselves, right? well, we don't. we live in this world with other people. the best we can do is try to get allong with them-- not with booze but with words, actions, thoughts and a positive attitude, which is possible to have even in the worst depression or even mania- it's what gets you out of depression and calms your mania. a balance. bubbles, i wish you the best and i only hope all of us in the jewish community have the courage and strength to talk about feelings as openly and freely as you do.

there is too much secrecy in the jewish community, and if we all had an ounce of the mental health and clarity you possess, bubbles, the world would be a MUCH better place. sometimes the only way to come to a positive conclusion is with pain. but here's hoping, bubbles, that we use the pain wisely and make sure other people don't have to go through it to come to the same realizations we have. it's all about making this world a better place to live in, one day and one person at a time.

feel good, everyone

atara


-------------------------
what the hecka is a signiature?
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

2/26/06 11:50 PM
User is offline

Ernie hope you are well.
Just to clarify re your feeling that the story about the chassid who danced with one bottle of vodka in one hand sends the wrong message to today's youth:
This chosid was pobably giving a lechaim to the soldiers. I saw him many times, and I don't remember him ever overdrinking.
I understand your concern that someone might see this picture and assume that drinking is the cure all. But this was certainly not the intention of the chosid, or the happy soldiers who were dancing in joy, perhaps celebrating Purim or some other happy occasion.
I assume that most people who saw the picture got the same healthy reaction, an upbeat cheerful feeling at seeing this rejoicing, and inspiration at seeing how one person's determination was able to bring joy to the lives of those defending our people.
As for the point that you correctly bring out, that you can not always just dance away emotional pain, you are correct, and I got it over the head from Silent. Even though it worked for this chosid, not everyone is the same, and not every pain is the same. May we all merit to hear only good news.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006

2/26/06 11:56 PM
User is offline

Atara
You write that it's about making this world a better place to live in, one day and one person at a time.

That was well said. And by doing this, we perfect G-d's world and prepare the world for Mashiach, may he come very soon.
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     



Torsalicious613
Senior Supporter

Posts: 461
Joined: Mar 2005

2/27/06 4:09 AM
User is offline

amen, amen!

a.


-------------------------
what the hecka is a signiature?
 
Reply
   
Quote
   
Top
   
Bottom
     

View thread in raw text format
FORUMS > General (Mental Health) < Refresh >

Navigation:

The information in this site is not intended to replace the advice of a doctor. FrumSupport disclaims any liability for the decisions you, the User, makes based on information on this site. By using this site, reading, viewing, posting or otherwise, you signify your assent to the Terms and Conditions of Use. If you do not agree to all these Terms and Conditions of Use, please do not use this site. FrumSupport may revise and update these Terms and Conditions of Use at anytime. Your continued usage of FrumSupport will mean you accept those changes.

If you think you or someone you know has a medical emergency, call your doctor, Hatzolah or 911 immediately. FrumSupport cannot and does not monitor forums and postings and cannot and will not pro-actively obtain help for users in need as FrumSupport does not have the funds or people power to accomplish such tasks and it will infringe on the anonymity of each user. Therefore, FrumSupport’s liability is limited by this paragraph and as further set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use.