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TOPIC TITLE: emotional pain
Created On 11/30/06 12:01 AM
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Debbi
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11/30/06 12:01 AM
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The pain has become overwhelming.
I am no longer feeling numb, so the pain has moved in.
I go to sleep at night, and the pain is present, I awaken in the morning, and it is still there.
There is no Tylenol for this kind of pain.
It is a pain that just is.
A pain that goes on and on with no respite.

My therapist told me that I need to accept the fact that my mother has once again abandoned me. She said that the pain I feel is the mourning process.

But no!
I am stubborn.
I refuse to believe that I have lost my mother.
I will not abandon all hope.
I just won't.
Yet this tenacity is what is allowing me to continue my suffering needlessly. According to the literature, one of the stages of recovery from abuse is "mourning".
Mourning the loss of a childhood, the betrayal of a [supposed] loved one or caretaker, and in my case, the loss of a parent.

He did it.
I learned today that my father told my mother about my accusations against him. Without his divulsion to her, she never would have known, and consequently would still be talking to me today.

Tommorow I will write another letter to her.
It will go like this:

Mommy,
Please call me.
The pain of your absence has become overwhelming.
I can no longer bear this excruciating pain.
It hurts. Mommy. So badly. It hurts.
Please don't wait until it is too late.
I need you. Mommy. I really do.

I will send it to her, and she will know how much this pain hurts. She'll call me then, I just know she will.
I have to believe that.
It is my only hope.

How ugly is this mindless need for a mother.
How sad, and endless.
How painful.

debbi.


Edited: 11/30/06 at 12:03 AM by Debbi
 
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redhead
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11/30/06 10:39 AM
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your words sound so familiar to me
i too refuse to give up hope for a mother
but unlike you i think i realised at a very young age that my mother was unavailable to me
she was just so wraped up in her own pain yelling out at us and crying....
so i just pushed on being extremly mature
later on i looked to the world for a mother
weaving fantsies around others
always being disapointed cuz i was never able to make them into what i wanted them to be.
and i still do that
i'm trying to get my therapist to fulfil that role to break her boundries
and i dont give up trying
if i do i feel that a part of me may die.
my T tells me that i can be that mother to myself
brings proof of how i've been to my children
but my children arent this beligerent angry voilent sad untrusting and extremly hurt child
i keep telling T that she need to be there for me and then i can learn to be there for myself
not sure if this sounds warped or it really makes sense.

guess i'm sort of at a diffrent stage in that morning mother pain
but oh its still there and it hurts so bad
i feel so much resistance to accepting my loss
my understanding is that as an adult it would't hurt me that much.
only cuz this wound is from my inner child, not so much about the here and now, but about the past.
i dont remember feeling this pain as a child.
my T says that i would've died if i felt it then.
i guess i also bealive that my mind will protect me now as it did then as a child
and i will only be feeling things that i can handle
and that resistance is just probably part of it
i'm probably jumping all over the place, but i think thats (some) of my two cents on this issue.

red head


Edited: 11/30/06 at 10:41 AM by redhead
 
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Debbi
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12/1/06 9:12 AM
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hi redhead,

Welcome, to Frum Support!

Yes, I know what u mean about wishing your therapist could be your mom.
Of course we understand logically that its not a viable option, yet that mindless wish is still present.
Its part of the pain I am feeling now.
I lay in bed last night feeling raw. You know? Almost as though my physical being was so battered and bruised that one more touch would kill me. Have u ever felt that way?

Its so strange, I am feeling such intense pain. I am scared to allow one more negative thought or feeling into my mind, because I am afraid I will explode.
Instead I remain tired and listless. Not a very good combination for being productive.

You said that your T tells you, that u can be a mother to yourself!
How I loathe that. My T tells me that too. What does she mean? I don't want to be my own mother!
I've taken care of myself my whole life, I need someone to take over for a bit....u know someone else, like a mother perhaps??

I too feel that I am that sad, angry, untrusting child. I don't want to be, but it seems as though I am anyway.

This morning I just feel tired, and sad. Kind of un- hopeful about the future. I know that sounds a bit whiney, but its the way I feel.

anyway RH, hope u have a wonderful Shabbos. And yes, u you are a good mother to your children!

take good care of yourself,
Debbi
 
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redhead
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12/1/06 10:34 AM
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hey debbi
got a few moments
you know, its good to hear that someone else going through that mother issue, sometimes i feel so alone and crazy in it, like no one else, and i'm not just standing up getting over it and being strong enough, i dont know about that pain that if s/o would toutch you you'd die, but i do know of other dieing pain. it's really tough cuz all in all no matter who is in my life, im alone with that pain, and it hurts like hell. but fighting myself hurts like hell too. yestoday i saw T, somehow learning to internalise a part of her, so that a part of her lives in side of me, you know her warmth, calm, clear unbreakable boundries, and try to just close my eyes and feel that warmth, many times i'm too resistant to it, cuz i dont want to give up hope that somewhere out ther, someone will one day do it for me. my T feels weve been stuck on this too long over 1 1/2 years and that i should maybe look for someone else, that put me in a huge turmoil, and for now i think that turned into a breakthrough for me, realising her limet.
about exploding and mindless pain, for me its come to a point that if i dont close door in my room or bathroom and beat a pillow real hard on bed or twist towel i will explode at children. it really works, i resisted that alot.
i guess what i'm thinking and trying to experience is that when i accept what i'm feeling, feel it, know it not about here and now but that child inside me, say some kind words to her that i think or she tells me she wants to hear and be tuned in to her needs ie slow down or wear something comfey, and then just go on, think posotive and start getting busy with something else. my T says 1/2 hour nice amount to feel pain with child and then go on. she says rest is wallowing. and i may be guilty of that alot, but i'm learning, slowly that is. i know there is an end to this, and i will emerge as a healthy human being.
well enough of my rambling for now, really gotta get back to work
good shabbos
and be gentle to yourseld (not sure what that means yet, put people tell it to me alot!!)

redhead
 
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redhead
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12/1/06 10:53 AM
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hey debbi
wondering, my T asks me to close my eyes, relax, feel where my pain is most in my body and make friends with it, say hello, then ask it why it's here, what it wants to tell me, and then what i can do for it.
i guess that is part of the mothering in a nutshell, at least her method, that i'm learning to incorprate. amid lots of resistance cuz of that old mindless hope as you call it

also please everyone excuse my spelling, i like to blame it on the fact that while in school, i wasent able to concentrate on that cuz too much chaos going on in my life. oh and i know it's not that bad.

good shabbos again
red head
 
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Debbi
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12/1/06 2:11 PM
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Hi redhead,

Went to T again today, and feeling awful because of it.

She came down on me hard. Saying that just because I "want" my mother, doesn't mean that I "need" her. She told me that babies would feel much closer and safer in the world if they were breast fed, but if they couldn't be nursed, there would be other options, they wouldn't lay down their heads and die. Which is what i am doing. Yes, it would be much more comforting if the baby could nurse at her mothers breast, but the baby does have other options, such as being bottle fed, and be loved and smiled at, and feel warm and comforted.

My T, said that I have been in Therapy for 6 years, and I have had the help that I needed, between my husband, and her, and my psychiatrist, and the therapist at the DBT program I went to, I have been "given" alot of warmth and encouragement.
So why am I being such an ungrateful idiot ?
Why am i acting as if I will die if I have no mother?

Deep down I know why.
Deep down the feelings I have are often intolerable. But why can't I explain the feelings? Why doesn't she get it? Why does she say that i am being stubborn and cruel to my children? Just for entertaining the thought of suicide, she said is cruel and destructive. Children pick up on things.
:

I'm so very sad and disheartened.
wishing to sleep and sleep...


good shbs
 
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kivunulo
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12/1/06 2:49 PM
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<"ki uvi v'imi azuvini v'hashem yasfeini"> (tehillim 27, 10) literrally translated "For though my father and my other have forsaken me, but hashem gathers me in".
the medrash (medrash tehillim 18) says "david hamelech wrote in sefer tehillim all the tzoros from all of klal yisroel individually till the day of the coming of moshiach (may it be soon)".
I think that it looks like dovid hamelech meant you in this posuk and he is talking directly to you that you should know for though you'r father and you'r mother have forsaken you hashem is taking care of you.
the last posuk of that kapittel <"kavei el hashem chazak v'yameitz libecha v'kavei el hashem"> translation "Hope to Hashem, be strong and He will give your heart courage, and hope Hashem" telling you there is still hope (if you realized he repeats two times hope to hashem, stressing it for it is not easy).

hope you understand this time (sorry for last time)
don't give up and keep smiling.

and wait, let me ask you something are you feeling bad for yourself or for your mother?


p.s. this shabbos i was by my sister and i heard my little nephew saying this exact kapittel (27), everyday he says another kapittel, i don't know what it means but it's definitely not just coincidence, think about it THIS shabboss i went to my sister, THIS shabbos my nephew was up to THIS kapittel, i was there in THIS time to here him saying his tehillim all THIS right after i wrote THIS post, intresting no, so i though i'll write it.


Edited: 3/9/07 at 3:12 PM by kivunulo
 
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ernie55B
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12/1/06 3:19 PM
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Hi Debbie,

I think it is inexcusable for a therapist to talk that way to you. I don't care how long you have been seeing her.
I think it is her job to , yes, hold your hand for as long as it takes.

I hope you can get through Shabbos okay and as I always say, have some menuchas hanefesh.

Ernie
 
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ernie55B
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12/1/06 3:22 PM
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P.S. Your children will not pick on your entertaining a thought. That's alot of bunk!
It is not cruel. I'm sure it is precisely BECAUSE of your kids that you don't kill yourself.
 
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aquabelle
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12/2/06 6:53 PM
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sorry ernie, ur wrong on this. kids pick up on a lot more than adults give them credit for. children pick up suicidal thoughts and it scares them. it's not necessarily cruel and destructive to children to have suicidal thoughts, but it is cruel and destructive to children to have suicidal thoughts and not let others take care of u and help u overcome them, even if it means hospitalization.
 
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ernie55B
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12/2/06 10:29 PM
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Hi Aquabelle,

I agree with your second statement, but although children can pick up on some of what their parents may be feeling, there is no way my children
detected suicidal feelings within me. Yes, they saw I was sad and down but I assure you they were not frightened by my thoughts. No way.

Ernie
 
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Belly
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12/3/06 1:44 AM
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HI Ernie
It's good hearing from you!.

I must say that I agree with aquabelle. Kids notice alot more than we can imagine. If they know exactly what's happening or not we will never know, unless they are old enough to express what they notice and feel. I know that my kids sense a lot and even when I'm depressed I"m far away from suicidal thoughts.

Ts have different aproaches as we have different needs. Sometimes support means holding your hand and sometimes it means to push someone.

Debbie please tell your T what you need, because deep inside you I'm sure you know if you need to be pampered or need to be pushed.

Have to go now
Belly
 
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Debbi
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12/3/06 10:41 AM
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I think u r all right on some level.

I really don't know what I need.
I mean I feel shaky, and vulnerable, so I suppose it would feel good to have someone "pamper" me. But in the long run, would that be the right thing? I imagine not...I don't know though.

Perhaps T is trying to "shock" me into taking responsibilty.
I think I am begining to come out of it a little. Its not fair of me to make those around me suffer. I think that I can manage to keep my sad feelings away from my children and husband, and save it for T sessions.

Children do catch on, I know that a few years ago when I was going through a particularly difficult time, my second grader refused to go to school. After months of trying to figure out what was going on, and with me sitting in the hallway outside his classroom, because that was the only way he agreed to be in school, we figured out, with the help of a therapist, that he was afraid to leave me in case something happened to me while he was gone. He felt the need to "take care" of me.
How sad is that.
Once he was reassured that I was being taken care of, by other adults, and that his place was in school, and not at home taking care of mommy, he began to attend school regularly.
He is my most sensitive one.
My T says that he is my barometer.
When he starts asking to stay home from school, I should recognise that i am deteriorating and that I need to get more help, and work harder.
It happened this past week, he came back from the bus stop claiming that he needded a coat, (even though it was almost 70 degrees outside), and then once home, refused to go back to the bus, and go to school.
This time however, I knew what the problem was, and so explained to him that although I haven't been feeling well lately, I will soon be ok. and that i am taking care of myself, etc etc.
He seemed re- assured, and he has since been okay.

Anyway, I've babbled on and on here...guess i must be feeling a bit better!
thanks again for all u guys support, and opinions.
Its refreshing to hear differences of opinion.

thanks all.
debbi
 
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Belly
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12/3/06 12:23 PM
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Hi Debbi
YOu are so amazing. I think it's unbelievable how you can see the good in all of us and not get upset at anyone for having a different opinion.
BTW I also have a "barometer" at home :-)
Belly
 
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ernie55B
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12/3/06 1:20 PM
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Okay, okay, maybe you guys are right. The main thing is Debbie is feeling a bit better today!
 
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ernie55B
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Hi Belly!

Thanks for the welcome back. I am feeling somewhat better myself. Glad you are too!

Ernie
 
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Debbi
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12/3/06 11:37 PM
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To u all!

debbi
 
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redhead
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12/4/06 1:53 PM
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hey debbi

just wondering, more that wondering, curious, what brought you out of this, above mentioned state?

how do you feel now about what your T said about having lost your mother, about all that you've been given in last 6 years?

i guess for me i weave in and out of much of the same feelings, like i'm gonna die if wont get that mother that i yearn for.

My T asks me that question too, what tools did i use to get out...

so i guess i'm wondering what it's like for you.

curious
redhead
 
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Debbi
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Hi Curious Redhead,
hey i like that combination, kinda cool.

Thanx so much for asking that question, because actually I'm curious too... odd as it may sound, its been on my mind, although I don't think i was concious of it.
My emergence from this hole I was in, was done unconciously, I mean I can't think of anything I actually did to get myself out of it.

Did it just happen?
I doubt that too.
I did read something about a paraplegic boy, who visits ill people in hospitals and hands out food baskets or something similar, and how much chizuk it gives to these patients. It touched something within me, and I began to realise that no matter what state I am in, with a mother or without a mother, it is my responsibilty to act appropiately.
The pain needs to be dealt with, but not on account of those around me.

I have not actually climbed out all the way. I think though that I can see a sliver of light.
The pain is still very apparrent, its just not as intense.
I need to deal with it in therapy. We talked about it today, aswell as my refusal to accept the present loss of my mother, and also my not allowing myself to acknowledge that I love her, and miss her and wish things would be different.

I explained to T, that i can "say" all of the above, but I can't feel anything as I talk about it.
I talk as though I am relating a story about another person. Emotionless, in a monotone voice.

During the last couple of minutes of my session this morning, things did come to the surface, and i noticed, with some surprize, that there were tears in my eyes. Now where did they appear from?

I very much need to explore those deep and painful feelings.
I am scared though, so i cut my arms, and use eating disorder behaviour to manage the pain. (ugh!)

T told me to pamper myself a little. A massage perhaps, or a manicure. me? never!
I don't deserve it....do I?

mmmm....something to think about.

debbi
 
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redhead
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12/5/06 2:24 PM
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hey debbi

that happnes to me too, that why i say time is sometimes the greatest healer for me, like if i can just "wait it out" and let it run its course, not hurt myself or anyone else in the process.

wondering, you say you do DBT. what if any of their tools do you use or have you incorprated in your healing.

i went to about 10 sessions of DBT, decided i did't like it, but what does strike me is the staying in the moment idea.
like its true i'm feeling horrid, but to realise that i'm safe now, i tend to get stuck in the past alot. ie in my need for a mother.

also for me that never is turning into a not ready for that right now, into well maybe....i guess it's just the idea of me trying to be open to ideas

you knowd
in therapy my T will suggest something, i will say no i cant do that. and then maybe later when i cant reach her for support and feel stuck, i'll try it!!

she always seems to be right, i just keep trying to find an easyer quicker way. where i dont have to do all the work.

i do the "say" alot too, as if speaking of someone else, its beautiful that little bit of teary eyed that you got, i'm alway so glad when i finaly get to cry!

i'm not familar with the cutting, but i am with the eating disorder, i've joined a 12 step group for that, and i dont find it being an issue anymore, i eat even though i dont want to so as not to break my abstance...but thats another subject.

what i did do yestoday when i was feeling anxious before i saw my therapist, is i raked lots of our yard, which is backbreaking work, but i've got so much nervous energy that it's hard for me to stop. so the kids played inside by themselfs and i raked outside.

for me now also, when feeling so sad i try to do something for myself, its not alway the right time.

well just some of my thoughts for now

still curious!
redhead
 
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Debbi
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12/5/06 4:39 PM
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ok, lets see if i have time to write before kids walk in from school.

DBT:
Yes, I have to admit that it saved my life.
A few years ago, I became extremely depressed and suicidal. I had to be hospitalised to get me onto some medication. I was in H for 2 weeks, and began to slowly feel better. The hospital wanted to know what my follow up treatment would be, and so my T decided on DBT. I was actually lucky, because there was an excellent program up in Westchester. It was very intense, every day from 9:00am until 1:00pm. There were doctors there too, so they could monitor meds, which was great for me, because I became obsessed with side effects. There was individual therapy twice a week, aswell as being able to talk to the therapist as the need would arise.

At the begining I was too depressed to really learn much, but as the months went by, I slowly began to internalise things.
I recall the very first skill I used:
"Being in the moment". I took my kids out to eat, together with my husband, and I conciously decided to enjoy just being there with them.
Pushed away all thoughts of what I "should" be doing instead of wasting my whole evening, or how much money I'm spending, or whether we should have gone to a different place... etc etc...
Instead, for the first time in my life, i actually felt enjoyment in the company of my family.
It was so beautiful and inspiring.

I am currently doing DBT again. Although this time its once a week, for one hour.
The skills really really help me. I must admit that I don't use them as much as I should. I find that the interpersonal skills, are very important, and I have begun to use those skills in particular.
I can't say its helped me for self harm issues, but we don't really focus on that during the hour.

anyway, must run, I will try to come back later.
take good care.
debbi
 
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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
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12/7/06 12:05 AM
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Debbi-
Could you give a brief description of what DBT is for the benefit of other members of the board?
A lynn
 
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Debbi
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12/10/06 11:11 AM
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http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

The above website will be the most imformative, but in my own words a short description is as follows;

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a collaborative therapy, it is done "with" you. A key assumption is that self destructive behaviors are a learned response in an effort to cope with unbearably intense and negative emotions.
When some individuals grow up in situations where there is abuse or neglect, they learn more extreme ways of getting others to take them more seriously. Thus a vicious cycle begins; The person is frightened, has no one to reach out to, is afraid to ask for help or believes no help is available.

These beliefs become magnified which then increases the feelings of isolation and fear, and in turn intensifies the sense of hopelessness.
One aspect of the treatment is teaching skills in emotion regulation, mindfulness of the moment, interpersonal regulation and distress tolerance.

DBT is a researched based treatment. It is done through individual therapy and DBT skills groups. The group format does not discuss details of past abuses or neglect, but rather focuses on identifying more effective ways to express pain in order to let go of emotional suffering and increase the quality of the clients lives.

In my own DBT treatment, I have learned that there are many ways to express anger other than engaging in self destructive behaviors. I have learned that my voice can be heard, and how to be effective in making that happen.
I have learned that life is not all black and white, life or death, desperate or joyful, but there exists many gray areas in between.

These skills do not come easily to those who have lived their lives using old childhood defense mechanisms to cope with lifes challenges. However they are possible if one is looking for change.

I continue to struggle with old defenses, but at the same time I have found hope in these skills, and every so often I am privilaged to glimpse a streak of sunlight.
 
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4702125952
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12/11/06 2:32 PM
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Debbi,Redhead,et. al,

I'm so glad to have found you. I am starting DBT this week and looking forward to it. You could say I'm 'high-functioning' borderline, but I've been through gehinnom and occasionally revisit (not purposely-- something sends me back).

I find that I bounce between thinking (fantasizing) that I have a mother and accepting her limitations. Every so oftne, a shock hits me when she says/does something decidedly unmotherly.

What helps me is realizing how sick she reallly is,how lonely (she denies there's anything wrong) and seeing hwo she is unable to relate intimately to anyone--so Idon't take it so personally.

Kudos for putting your children worth. I feel my life is worth living when I see my children engage in healthy emotional expression, soothing, behaviors. Isn't that worth living for?

R.
 
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redhead
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12/12/06 1:31 PM
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hey
glad you are here too. humm so a high functioning boarderline! does that mean a boaderling boaderline!!

i'd like to think that i would've been a functioning boaderline had my father not sexualy abused me, i think that compounded the mother loss thing.

my T thinks my boaderline is more related to emotionaly (physicaly) unavaliable mother. for now i choose to differ.

i'm not in much contact with my mother, but as you say the osclating... where something triggers us into the fantasy of hope...

right now i'm feeling grounded, been journaling alot and
i'm trying to watch record my moods see how long i can stay in the presant and remain relitivly calm.
what triggeres my offset
and what helped me come out.
so far never been in something for more than 1/2 a day. which is great, i could go for weeks in something.

i pray to Hashem to help me stay here (for my sake, kids and my husband) or go higher.
i'm learning to realish every moment and just be the best that i can and continue using my tools and practicing...

thats all for now
red head

 
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redhead
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by the way peace dove, is 4702125952 your phone number?
curious again
red head
 
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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
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Thank you for the beautiful description, Debbi.
a lynn
 
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kivunulo
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12/16/06 7:54 PM
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i figured its 212-470-5952
happy chanukah!!


Edited: 3/9/07 at 3:11 PM by kivunulo
 
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4702125952
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Posts: 137
Joined: Feb 2006

12/17/06 11:48 AM
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No that's not my phone number. I'm not great (or patient about learning to) at figuring out passwords etc. and did not know what would show up as my name when I became a member! I'll use Raisy as my email name.

I just started a DBT group in NYC and am looking forward to learning and applying the skills.

About the abuse: isn't it true that often the anger is greater against the parent who did nothing rather than the abuser him/herself? There was definitely 'indiscretions' in my home (underdressed adults) and immodest behaviors that disturbed me a lot--especially since I was young and couldn't make much sense of it.

Now I understand that my mother was exhibiting classical borderline symptoms.

I'm divorced. I would think that having an understanding spouse would speed the healing. At least that's what I fantasize.
 
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div01
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12/19/06 1:21 AM
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'Having an understanding spouse would speed the healing".
I definitely agree with that one. I'm also divorced, spouse was so emotionally abusive!
Therapist said that having a good spouse would no doubt have helped me heal.
 
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SaraSmith
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12/19/06 11:08 AM
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if you can let your spouse in...

I bH was blessed with a wonderful and undertsanding husband and I have such a hard time letting him in to the emotional world going on in me under the surface. I have this trouble due to the past abuse where anyone i wanted to trust misused that trust and invalidated e/th i felt so i learned to shut everyone out...
 
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