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TOPIC TITLE: scratching/ anxiety
Created On 2/27/09 2:42 PM
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helpplz
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2/27/09 2:42 PM
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Hi I want to know what therapy you recommend for the following. I scracth and dig into my legs with such intensity and vehemence untill it bleeds. i know its anxiety yet what is the treatment for it. Dr currently seeing says talk. i think talk is not enough. i talked talked talked. there got to be something more. How would you treat such a client? I'm 22 yr old, highly functioning have a degree and a well paying job, respected and loved in my work and friends. My parents are limited- mother on pyscotrophic drugs (anxiety depression parania) and father happy person overly trusting and cant make a living etc. have bro who is schiz. BH i feel i came to a point where i accepted it on some level and i dont have much anger etc. im not exactly sure where all this anxiety is coming from. Dr says anxiety is fear for future while depression fear of past. Do u agree and therefore what? talk abt fear of future? there got to be somethiong more. when i tell him that, he responds talk and when i tell him i did he says really? i really dont want to waste my time nor money he is a fortune $175 and hour and im paying this kind of money cuz i want something good ,was in therapy already for past 2 years with 2 women (and coach and antother for short period of time) and it didnt work. im scared he'l fall into same trap. at this point i have all the awareness, psychological lingo etc i could practically finish his sentences for him. im a happy confident person whose highly driven and capable i just have this anxiety issue and the last thing i need is he putting me on a roller coaster with it. what i think i need from therapy besides anxiety is to have a trsuting realtionship w a therapist where the therapist can make mistakes yet own up to them thsi would be true therapy for me. i never met a therapist yet who can answer up- my past therapists ended for thsi reason they made mistakes or couldnt admit tah they couldnt offer me more- what i needed and blamed it on me- im not expressive or i have too high expectations or something else- which when discused w outsider agree that want true very verbal and expressive and too high expectations- she wasnt reading me adn fell for my defenses adn that smy problem anyway. w thsi new therapsit he wil prove himself either way fif he can or cannot answer up in the following session since we had a bad session this past week and i will discuss it w him. if he doesnt own up i dont c how i can cont. w him.u c for me if u cant own up, i cant trust you ,and then were wasting our time bec if theres no trust you dont tallk abt real stuff. im sure you have this all the time w ur clients how do you respond when clients ask u to own up? Know of any frum therapist like Dr Irvin D Yalom? can use his honesty, expertise, focus on transference , realtionship and here and now methods. any ideas i would greatly appreciate it.
Tizku Limtzvos,
 
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frumsw
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3/16/09 12:32 PM
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Sounds like you're paying to much. Call RELIEF for a better referral.


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4702125952
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3/17/09 10:59 PM
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You may want a therapist familiar with DBT. Have you read up on Borderline Personality Disorder? You can read some on the other threads in the Mental Health forum here or elsewhere. Borderline symptoms may describe what you are feeling. You can PM me for more info if you like.
 
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helpplz
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3/18/09 12:42 AM
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thanks for the response.....

frumsw- actually spoke to relief and asked him abt my Dr before went yet already scheduled consultation- dont ask- he said hes clinically good yet too tough wouldn’t recommend to women. it scared me whats that supposed to mean yet a t same time could use someone tough , walked over too many already. he did recommend someone else yet same price.....

4702.....-u scare me! who are you? how did u come up w this diagnosis from just that one post! well ur mighty intelligent and should go into the field if you’re not already. i still dont believe it yet this past session he gave me this diagnosis. the session went very strange without a normal flow. he started off by telling me that he wanted to read me something and I should tell him if its true then he starts reading off from his notes the criteria for diagnosis of bpd.. he goes.. do u have intense unstable relationships? i go yes. (Although it’s just w authority figures older women i.e. Reb., have stable relationships w friends, best friend for 8 years) and he cont. the list at end of list he rambles on and doesnt wait for an answer and says YEs! Yes! YES! ok i just kept quiet sounded like he was screaming it in my ears. i didnt know what he was reading yet i interrupted him in the middle and said it sounds like ur reading off the DSM4, he looked at me shocked didn’t say anything and cont’d on... (later in session says that it was the DSM 4 I say: thats funny. He goes: no its not!)Then he says its called BPD and i say thats nice, easy for u to diagnose (he says no its not!) and I say what’s the point? how is this gonna help me? i dont remember his answers yet i do remember that they weren’t good i wasnt satisfied. he just hit me w a bomb and wasn’t validating or comforting. he did say- its not the end of the world, where i just thought what is wrong w this guy imagine i just told him that he had cancer and then said its not the end of the world. looking back i didnt even show him anger just disbelief and feeling like he doesnt know what hes doing. then i went on to say how the past session and this one hes acting so cbt and arent u analytic? another shocked expression and then he said that hes in the business long enough and he knows it all. i then asked so which one do u practice and he said whatever is best for the patient- perfect line that says nothing! i guess he didn’t realize that i was saying that i dont like cbt approach and feel that analytic works best for me i believe that much of therapy for me is having the trusting supportive relationship w therapist making up for not having one as a child. anyway on the way out he mentions so casually that hes gonna be away for a week when looking at my calendar it was really two. i couldnt believe it. what was he thinking. did he think twice before told me diagnosis that maybe he should have waited until he came back to tell me so there wouldn’t be a two week break .like hi u know i have abandonment issues are u trying to test how bad they are. didn’t u realize that im gona b left hanging with no one to console me....that I went to work n emotional wreck wanting to scream hi everyone im mentally ill! may as well act like one if I just officially got the diagnosis- permission to act crazy- my colleagues would have thought im making a big joke- u????so respected, looked up upon from pple twice ur age….that night and every night since i went online and devoured the internet reading everything, watching crazy u tube clip,s and holding in something i so desperately wanted to scream out. someone help me i was just diagnosed w a mental disorder!!! Either this guy is crazy or i am bec this is nuts! i just finished reading Rachel Reilands book Get me out of here and enjoyed every minute of it. it left me jealous that she could have a Dr so caring, trusting, intelligent, skilled, competent, and warm, who would never say or do half the things my did (only had 5 sessions so far) while im left with a Dr who leaves me hanging doesn’t validate my feelings abt getting such a diagnose or show me a plan, tell me that hes gonna b here for me and help me, outline the course of therapy, what the method? Dbt? etc how many times a week etc? nothing!!!!!! leaves me totally hanging at the mercy of my own resources. Really wonder what hes thinking or IF hes thinking is more the quest. How am I supposed to go to work and act like a mensh w such a burden o n my shoulders w no one to help me. He did say when I left that if I leave him a msg he’l return my call. What a beautiful way to give an invitation!! Ofcourse im not gona call him what would I say? Um u threw an atomic bomb and then left me with the debris and expect me to stay alive without any support for two weeks that feels like eternity.. .
doing my research i see the latest is this dbt approach. It sounds similar to cbt and would much rather psychoanalytic. Rachel's therapy was analytic and i can see myself responding well to it. i hope my Dr read the book (if not il give it to him)and agrees to it bec cant c another way. yet past 2 sessions treating me w cbt not validating and just focusing on my actions where in my view that misses the point. analytic gets to the core of the issue and deals w it- feeling the needs didn’t get- so then the negative behavior naturally diminishes. while cbt in my opinion deals w the behavior and misses the underlying factors i.e. trauma that need to be addressed. i was neglected as a child etc so for me i never got phase 1 of Freudian needs- love security safety= trust. so therefore see that getting it from therapist fills that need and able to move forward. dont know if im clear nor if it makes sense to u yet to me it does. another thing that bothers me is why he felt the need to give me diagnosis especially that don’t have major symptoms that most pple do - not anorexic, never abused alcohol, drugs or s-x nor attempted suicide nor hospitalized. And please dont put me on the equal of hitler yemach shemo and princess Diana. I would say I have tendencies yet disorder isn’t that pretty harsh why the need? I know my issues- anger, intense feelings, all or nothing, abandonment and more and I know where coming from abandonment from parents and and tonz of stress and shame etc why need tell me have bpd? Mayb he wants to scare me. Don’t know. At this point don’t know where to turn and will have to wait for next session to discuss this all w him. I hope we can b on the same page and work together if not…... I cant finish the sentence… I tried too many pple to even think of another one. He also never mentioned any group therapy and wonder if that would b helpful to me I always felt so different and til today event though I have close intimate relationships w my friends deep down they’ll never understand what I go through their lives are so relatively ordinary…I always wished I could meet someone similar to me always feel so alone in the world so lonely even though have top quality amazing friends and social life in work etc.
 
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4702125952
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3/18/09 7:53 PM
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It's eminently treatable; the fact that you are reaching out is already a sign that you are a very 'workable' borderline. There is much help for bpd. You sound intelligent: start reading up about it. You can start with "Stop walking on eggshells', by Kreger, "Get Me Out of Here" by R. Reiland. Marcia Linehans handbook for DBt is an excellent resource.

You are on your way to recovery! It will be a painful but enlightening journey, I assure you.

B'hatzlacha m'ruba.
 
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4702125952
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3/19/09 10:13 AM
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Just read your entire post. Whew! O.k. You read Reiland's book. I empathize completely with the envy of her very dedicated therapist. Please don't beat yourself up for having a 'mental disorder'. It's actually called a 'personality disorder' which is different. You must be a very sensitive, intelligent person. I have complete confidence that you will heal. Some loneliness wil always be there. Most people suffer some degree of existential loneliness, perhaps many don't identify it as such. You are aware of your pain--that most likely makes you an empathic friend.

I agonize, too, over the 'missed' security that was supposed to occur (as per Freud, Erikson) in the first years of our lives. It ain't never gonna come back and some measure of grief will always be there--anger, too, I suppose. But knowing what you missed, and the way that has impacted how you interact (or don't interact) with the world is of help in achieving self-awareness and eventually a degree of healing.

I gained a lot from Dr. Laura Schlessinger's radio program. (You can still catch her on on 970 am 9:00 p.m - 12:00 a.m.) She would say "You have two chances at a loving parent/child relationship. If you didn't get lucky the first time when you were a child--you can establish one with your child." Miriam Adahan also commented that if we're involved in loving transactions--even if you're on the giving end--it's very therapeutic. You're 'redoing', being 'mesaken' if you will, what went awfully wrong in the past. She's got a good book, too, "Bad Childhood, Good Life".
 
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helpplz
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3/19/09 10:25 PM
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thanks for your warm remarks. i actually had the long awaited session today which was supposed to be an hour yet was ahalf an hour, since i overslept bec i had a tumultous sleep waking up twisting and turning and trying to fall bsck asleep only for it to reoccur. i almost never have such agonizing nights however due to what the mornign awaits im not shocked. so once i finally fell asleep i overslept. our body has its sense of humor how to avosd the session after waiting for it for two weeks. anyway thnn there was no parking (normally find right away, had to cirle) then parked by meter yet didnt look up to see that was street cleaning so came back to find a ticket there. so my half an hr session cost me $220. anyway gam zu letovah b"h im not even upset and i think its comical. anyway session went well he was warm sympathetic...he said no u dont have mental illness as if i made it up...i said if anythign i hv tendencies and he said ok lets talk abt them... he explained why he said its not the end of the world is bec its very treatable and has success w all patients w it. dbt. i said i dont like dbt (just from reading it) so he said ok will do analytic so he goes on abt not getting needs met as a child and i tell him that mother on birth control when born wasnt supposeded to be born she should have aborted if couldnt take care of baby he goes chas vsholam and he really meant it he said chas vsholam atleast 5 times in session i got such a kick out of it like why do u care anyway.anyway as hes going on abt feeling neglected and building defenses and take care of yourself mistrust, im laughing in my head.. like i kknow all this stuff, but what do i want form this poor guy, i tell him no dbt sine its sounds so attacking the behavior yet when he starts w freud i could say it for him and im thinking this is what im paying him for i know this stuff. anyway i just listened and said i know yet he said first time someone put it into words for you i guess he doesnt realize how much i read...its fine...i asked him abt how long it takes he says everyone asks him that and he cant give an answer so i said aproximate he said i dd it in 8 sessions and a year. so i go the longest a year? shocked and he said your thinking the worst case scenario for you might not be a year. in my head thought he meant take longer yet thinking now he probaly meant shorter. thats funny. how could he help someone in 8 sessions? sounds impossible to me.....anyway i wud love to go to suport group/ group therapy w high fuctiong bpd. i thnk it would help me not feel so unique and alone. u know any groups taht run like Dr Yaloms w his method?here and now. its amazing what he does... it was a good session yet feel very ambivalent since hes not consistent. past 2 sessions mocking me and knocking me and this session tries to make me feel good i dont know what to take and what not to i dont want to have to sensor what he says . is it normal to do that? do u take everything to heart or sensor when u feel hes off topic? do u ask him to own up? i feel that thats the best way but when they cant i c no point and then u loose trust and then all they say looses its power on lower leverl u dont take everythign as seriously. i dont want that to happen here and i want to take him seiously yet if hes mocking etc not gona take that personaly so then why would i take his compliments seriously. i shoud probaly bring this up bec i cant trust him not knowing how il b treated- nice or mockingly. dnt know why hes not consistent. or mayb just in my eyes it isnt.- thats what hel probaly say- good psychologist cover up line....... thats the problem w these things cuz at the end of the day they can use any of these lines to get away w anything. i.e. therapy didnt work bec u r resisitent or u hv too high expectations..even if not true its so easy for them to cover their tracks and make u feel guilty.
thanks fr ur responses i really appreciate them.
hv a beautiful shabbos!
Enjoy the love and security your children give back to you!
I hope to join ur ranks one day, doing it right!
 
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4702125952
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3/21/09 11:04 PM
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I like you sense of humor! Why not be totally up front with your therapist and ask him/tell him what you're thinking, wondering, feeling, fearing. This is your opportunity to be your 'craziest'. I'm using the word figuratively, what I mean is you can act out your anxieties. Let yourself go.

I'm rooting for you.

Who is Dr. Yalom? What sort of therapy does he practice?
 
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helpplz
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3/22/09 9:19 PM
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"let myself go"....i guess i dont feel so comfortable w him yet nor do i completely trust him yet to do that. i do want to tell him that i need him more than i want to admit and that once a week is not enough and feel i can benefit from group also, help me feel less lonely and unique!
were you ever in a group? how was it run? was it like... today were gonna learn... like dbt skills or was it more interpersonal meaning, the group took it at its own course, exploring whats going on between members as therapy rather than a structured group run by therapist. This is where Dr Yalom comes in. He is a one of a kind therapist, highly skilled, with a caring passionate heart, who is famous for his success in group therapy. his book on group psychotherapy is used in colleges. He wrote many books including novels, case studies and informative texts. I love his case studies the best, allowing you to enter his private office and get a glimpse of the master therapist at work, healing the untreatable with his honest straight forward approach. Its truly amazing, you have to read for yourself. I enjoyed "loves executioner", "the Schopenhauer cure" and a "twice told therapy" with Ginny. You could get his books at the library and you can check out his website. His approach is psychoanaytlic. Hes into dreams and the here- and - now approach. Meaning, he uses the therapeutic realtiosnhip w all its projections and transference as therapy. (meaning, how client acts treats him, he treats others and uses that to help client realize what hes doing and explors motives etc) He is very honest and straight about his feelings also, which makes him so unique and special.
I wonder if there is such a group in Bklyn Ny area for high functioning BPD where the therapist uses Yaloms group therapy methods. if anyone hears of any please let me know.
 
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4702125952
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3/23/09 6:34 PM
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Dr. Yalom's approach sounds interesting. I participated in a DBT group for about 8-9 sessions once a week two years ago at St. Lukes Roosevelt outpatient clinic run by Helen Dwayne. I think there is a lot of wisdom in the DBT approach. I'm the sort of person who needs to try things before I know which approach works. Sometimes there is merit in each type of therapy, something I learn from each. I also had an excellent therapist at the Jewish Board who recently moved to Miami. I miss her and keep in touch sporadically with her. I'm now looking for another therapist and am glad that I have more clarity in what I'm looking for.

By sharing your anxieties and observing his response you'll learn more about your therapist. It helps if your therapist likes you and appreciates your intelligence and awareness. I go to women therapists only because I need to relate deeply and am concerned about breaches in modesty--emotional modest--that may occur with a male therapist.
 
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helpplz
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3/23/09 8:13 PM
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intersting abt male therapist...by me dont work well w women i believe (2 women before each for around a year)bec projections w mother and also women get intimidated by me that i know so much and im so youg etc so i think a man can appreciate it better without feeling the power struggle... i think he cares and appreciates my awareness dont really know..i mean he says he cares but what is that supposed to mean? and he told me in the beg when i told him that this is a buisness partnership..(just did it to c his response) ofcourse dont really mean it. i mean on some level it is. im paying u and ur giving me a service, yet if its done right... he can learn from me as much as i could learn from him. anyway his response was.. i need two things in order for me to b able to help you... one, i need to like you and two, i need to feel your pain with u. how sweet/ romantic..jj......the quest is if it was sweet talk or if he really meant it. i was thinking.... did u ever say no to a client cuz you couldnt like him/her. ofcourse i didnt ask...
anyway, how did dbt program work in 8 clases? isnt that short? is it practical? do u use it in ur life? wud u do it again? or is it the type that u just do it once? did u ever go to group therapy besides? was it helpful?
cud your previous therapist recommend someone who practices her approach? it must b so hard to have found someone who you can connect and feel comfortable w and then she leavg u, especially w abondment issues....
just curious if ur willing to share.. what approach works for u? u said u like to try them out, ur in the buisness longer, what do u feel works what doesnt?
 
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4702125952
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3/24/09 7:39 AM
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The DBT sessions I attended were run according to the Marcia Linehan model (she's the founder of the dbt approach) and each session was learning a new skill. The therapist did strongly encourage us to stay on for the second round since we would review the skills and become more adept at using them. I found the traveling difficult and stopped after one round. I've integrated most of the concepts on my own and found that working one-on-one with a therapist with mutual affection worked better for me. Yes, it was and is quite disappointing to 'lose' A. to Miami; you get better at 'goodbyes' with time...she was so sympathetic and really encouraged me to keep up with her--that made it easier. I just spoke to her yesterday and even got a mini-session in on the phone.

I was raised in a home with a narcissistic very borderline mother and it took years of therapy --i'm still not done--to heal from the abusive relationship. I did have a male therapist for a while, whom I saw with my then husband, for marriage counseling and I must say he served as a fatherlly, caring figure in my life for quite a while but there were points where I began to fantasize about him in a non-fatherly way; ultimatelly, the relationship petered out with me being left mostly disappointed . Now I recognize the borderline abandonment issues and the rage and distrust. At that time the best I could come up with was that he was obtuse, overly pacific and non-judgmental (of my ex-husband , of course). Looking back, I did learn some important things from him.

There are warm and intelligent women therapists who are not 'challenged' by intelligent, knowledgeable clients. there's a lot of transference that goes on in therapeutic relationships. I'd rather focus on my relationship with the therapist and get some help with my needs than worry about inappropriate thoughts/feelings with a male therapist.

 
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frumsw
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3/27/09 9:04 AM
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It sounds like you're are struggling with bonding with your new therapist and have some very valid points. A therapist is "supposed to " be able to handle whatever you are thinking and feeling so by all means, let him know. I don't think any therapy method is effective without a trusting relationship so that has to be established first. The amount of people who are walking around who have not been nurtured properly is enormous and I see it happening before my eyes with the children I treat so you are so not alone in your struggle. A friend of mine was neglected physically and emotionally as a young child and had many therapists and had all kinds of issues with them. She used to "glob" onto people and then feel abandoned...She finally made a breakthrough when she realized that when she was "abandoned" she still survived-not happily but she made it. She then realized that she does not always need somebody to be totally dedicated to her. She had done a lot of work on her self esteem to get to this point but she was still stuck until she realized this. After that, her relationships were a whole different ballgame. What I'm saying is, change is possible, stick with it, and good luck.


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