Hi Dr. Lynn,
I am new to this forum and would like your professional opinion. I have a client who has been seeing a therapist on and off for a couple of years. They have a very good rapport and close therapuetic relationship. They are basically contemoraries and live and daven in the same community. Would it be ethical for them to become social friends after the therapy ends.................and a year or two have passed?
Thank you in advance

There currently is no termination. The client was seeing someone before who has retired. The current therapist was the original therapist from several years ago. They are both married woman, so we are not talking about any togetherness , one on one relationship , just a friendship. By the way it is the client not the therapist who would like the friendship. The therapist has been very professional during the entire therapeutic prosses. Whould it be safe to say, that this is a fantasy of the client? And if so, should they confront the issue, I do believe that it was spoken about during the beginning of the initial therapy several years ago. The client is very reality based, and does know that it would be very unllikely to happen. But, what is the harm if they would both agree many many years down the line??? After all kulanu yehudim? Or, how whould you recommed getting the client to stop obsessing about it? She has confided in me that the therapist is always on her mind, and how much she admires and emmulates the person. She is not envious of her life, but would like life with less hardships.......................not too many financial difficulties and a loving ,supportive family, moving in the same social circles, etc .

Dr.Lynn,

Actually the therapist did mention what you did earlier about the relationship being somewhat unequal.........and that for this reason it wouldn't be a good idea. She did also mention that perhaps if it would have been in a different time and under different circumstances things might have been different

Do, therapist genuinely care about their clients? What if someone really is a loser and there is no way for the person to improve , should the therapist continue to give false hope and encouragement to that person?
When you leave your office for the day do ever think about or try to feel your patients pain.........and have a sincere desire to help that person? Or do therapists sit around and poke fun of how pathetic some of their patients truly are. Don't' you ever get tired of hearing the same old complaints, and giving out the same "shpeel to everyone? Maybe, being a true friend is all they really need to feel happy and good about themselves. Not have to pay someone in order to have some attention and understanding, and perhaps some positive regard. Are most therapist, content with their job at the end of the day?/ I would hope so, otherwise I do feel much sorrow and empathy for their poor patients.
Hope you can answer these questions honestly...............it is something that I have always been curious about.
Thank you in advance

RN-
Sorry about the oversight- I was not dodging your questions. I can only answer for myself, and I do not think I am a fair sample, because I am a very unorthodox orthodox shrink. I have genuine feelings for my patients and I tell them, when I feel it is appropriate. I do not subscribe to the "blank screen" model of therapy and I am very self disclosing; I "call it like I see it". I try to provide an environment of acceptance and safety yet I am also confrontational. I am reminded of a rabbi friend of mine who says his job entails: "comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable". I do not "poke fun" at patients unless they are clear I am doing it affectionately. I also poke fun at myself. I do not believe in harboring false hope, but rather learning to accept reality. I feel there is so much depth to the 12-step "serenity prayer", asking G-D for the "courage to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference". I think that many therapists tell themselves that they don't disclose to protect the patient, but in reality, I think they are protecting themselves. Even therapists can be scared of intimacy, honesty and vulnerability. I have more respect for therapists who are in treatment themselves, and am appalled when I hear that so many therapists either were never in treatment or stopped shortly after getting licensed. I am "out" to my patients that I go to a therapist, b/c I truly believe in the product and the process. I want them to know that I put my money where my mouth is (literally), and I know what it's like to be in the "hot seat" on a weekly basis. At the end of the day, I am not only content, I am energized and feel I have the best job in the world (for me).

If you are willing to share, what has been your experience with therapy? If I did not answer your questions, please ask more.
A Lynn

Hi Dr. Lynn,

I just wanted you to know that my therapist takes the exact same approach as you do. I find it very refreshing. She tells me about the humanistic aspects of her life; the problems her children and husband face and how they deal with it. I have so much more respect and admiration for her than the stuffy lady(?) I wasted my time with for 4 years. She would not give me as much as a smile- ever! The only reason I stayed with her, was because I believe she spoke the truth about what was going on with me. So I really shouldn't say wasted time with- rather, suffered with.

I just came from my appointment, as a matter of fact. It was quite intense in that I tried to convey how deeply I was suffering emotionally. I happen to believe that unless you have experienced it first hand, you cannot really understand what it means to be perfectly healthy physically, yet feel that it is so painful to stay alive.

She says she is convinced that someday I will feel better; I tell her I don't believe that is possible. After being in this situation for 35 years, I truly believe the odds of improvement are slim.
That is why I refuse to let go of anorexia. I see it as a passive suicide. At least the family won't have to deal with the stigma of a 'regular' suicide. I know a frum girl who died of anorexia. Noone is saying she killed herself.

You asked me a while back what ever happened with the ECT. The MD who does it did not hold out much hope for success in my case, due to various factors. The best he could say was that it can't hurt.
My feeling is, that as long as I am here I cannot invest the 3 days a week for 2,3,4 weeks or so and the short term memory loss
for something that doesn't have that good a chance of working.
I run a business, and customers would not understand me taking so much time off. If I were dead, on the other hand, that they would understand. In other words, as long as I am here, I feel a sense of obligation to everyone and everything.
If I were not here, I would not have to worry about stuff like that.

Am I a disgusting human being or what?
I have 3 kids and yet I think about this, alot.

I spent 5 hours last Shabbos afternoon lying in bed thinking about how many pills it would take.....
(Can you take meds. on Shabbos to kill yourself? - My Pdoc. chuckled at that)

I guess that is a good update as to how I am doing.

Hope you are well.
As always, thanks for your input.

Ernie

RN and Ernie-
Thank you for your comments. Ernie, hang in there. Are you having your meds adjusted? By what you havw said in the past, your shrink always seemed on the ball to me.
a lynn

Hello Gad,

Thank you for your kind words as always. But heroic?
I take care of my children because that is what humans are supposed to do. (I do love them, btw)
Should I be any less than an animal that provides for its' young?

That's not heroic or superhuman. It's human period.

Ernie

Hello RN,

I hope you don't mind me interjecting here, but I have told my T that I have feelings for her. She says this is perfectly normal
and nothing wrong with having feelings. As a matter of fact she thinks it is a good thing. She knows I am not a stalker and does not have anything to fear of me. She knows I am not making any plans to marry her. So it is good because it is one of the very few things I look forward to all week.
She feels that until I meet the right woman and get remarried, it is ok for me to have feelings towards her. She is very happy I can talk about it with her.
I am mature enough to realize that she is happily married, and therefore nothing could ever come of this relationship.
So there is your answer as to how a client deals with the realization that there cannot be a relationship with the therapist.
Maturity. The same way a person sometimes has to accept the fact that although they might want to be in a relationship, the other person may not want to have anything to do with them.
Am I making sense here?

Ernie

Hi Ernie,
No, I don't mind, after all the topic is on transference. I appreciate your honesty. I feel the same way towards my therapist.............feelings of freindship though, nothing else. I was just curious as to a therapist's point of view. There in lies the question for Dr.Lynn.
Good luck to you, I know the difficulties of being divorced and alone,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,With Hashem's help it will pass, at thinks will be good
Kol tov
RN

Hi Debbi,

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. I did discuss the issue with my therapist, as I said, and we are both clear that there never will be any relationship (friend or otherwise) outside the office.
I probably wish she were a mother figure more than anything else. I have no physical feelings towards her.
I wish she could invite me for a Shabbos.
But as I said before, I am mature enough to understand that that could never happen.
So although I can wish for certain things, it is ok being that I know that it is nothing more than fantasy.
I believe that qualifies as getting beyond.

How are things with you?

E

RN,

Thank you for your good wishes. It is awful coming home to an empty apartment when I don't have my kids for Shabbos.
I spent 4 hours lying in bed a few weeks ago on Shabbos afternoon wondering if one can take pills on Shabbos to kill themselves. I'm only HALF joking when I say this.
I take lots of pills for high BP, and they are very tempting.

I have become despondent, and my therapist told me to come in tomorrow morning.
I am afraid, though, that neither she nor my Pdoc. have much else to offer.

Ernie

Debbie,
I have discussed this issue with my therapist, I have no illisions of us becoming friends. As a professional I am totally aware of the implications, and I would never do anything to jeopordize my therapist's license.
I just wanted to know from a therapist's point of view( other than my therapist).



Ernie,

Please don't take those pills!! Life is very difficult for some, but you owe it to yourself and your children to stay strong. I do know how difficult that is when you feel completely dispondant. The feelings will pass in time. But taking those pills and ch"s ending it all is for eternity.
Life is just too short, we all must find the strength to enrich our lives and the lives of those around us.
Stay strong!!

Hi Ernie,
Not at all! I was not saying that it was immoral to talk and discuss these feelings. On the contrary I think thats what therapy is all about. Talking, but not acting on ones feelings.

Sorry if you misunderstood. I addressed my post to RN and u, b/c u both had written at the same time. sorry.
I wrote to you in the "depression" forum. Check it out.

tc
debbi.

Dr.Lynn,
Thanks, I have discussed it with my therapist, she was not at all ucomfortable talking about it, of course I was, but that's natural b/c I was the client. It i refreshing to hear that you don't turn off your feelings. I would imagine though that you have to leave some of the issues behind. How would you function otherwise. It would be very stressful for you otherwise. I know from my own experiences with patients that I do have tremendous compassion and empathy for them. I am a very sensitive person I think that is why I get too envolved emotionally which I;m sure therapists must deal with as well. I takes much disipline. As frum jews we are all one big family!! Yes , boundaries are important , b'h we have them.
Have a good evening,
RN

Debbie,
Thanks, I have read his books and many others, and have enjoyed them very much. As a matter of fact I just finished reading The Other Side of the Couch by Gail Albert. There is also another book with a similar name by Dr.Sullivan Stack, who is one of the founding fathers of modern psychotherapy.

Ernie,
Hope this post finds you feeling better.

"Trunia" is an aramaic word. It is in gemorah avodah zora page 3a. Rashi translates it as "alilah" meaning a plot (as in alilas dam, blood libel).

So G-d doesn't plot things for us which are undoable.

You ask a good question. Why don't you feel the strength? Maybe your ability to hold on till now was because you tapped into your inner G-d-given strength.

I wonder if your present mood has anything to do with the comment of your therapist, that you may need to fight this thing for the rest of your life. I think that a comment like that would depress anyone. I'm actually surprised that a therapist, who is supposed to instill hope, would say this, especially when new discoveries in medicine and genetics are radically changing things. One world-renowned specialist told me years ago that discoveries in genetics are already being used, and the years ahead hold unbelievable promise.

Hope to hear good news from you.

Debbi-
I am writing what I really feel, and I know some of my patients read this message board. That is my point. I am the same here as in my office. When I talk about my experiences in this forum, I don't identify anyone. As for your other question, when patients talk about their feelings towards me, as Div01 pointed out, sometimes it's about me (in the sense that they get different responses from me than other people in their life, for example- what Winnicott called "the corrective emotional experience"), but mostly, it is THEIR feelings/wishesfantasies, etc. about me or what I represent to them. I almost always find these discussions interesting and I often comment/validate that the patient feels comfortable enough to take the emotional risk to share those feelings with me. I also enjoy reading Yalom and Harry Stack Sullivan.
Div01- Thanks for your comments and the book references. Welcome to the board!
a lynn

Thank you. Hatzlacha rabba!
a lynn

Panda-
What you are talking about is totally normal, and you should not be embarrassed to bring it up "on the couch". There are lots of possible reasons to "obsess" about one's therapist, and I think it's worth exploring.
a lynn

Panda-
I don't know why you assume that you will not have the life you deserve. As for "obsessing", I think it is normal that the sense that the therapeutic relationship is (ideally) very intimate, yet it has very contrived, particular boundaries and it is not balanced, since the bulk of what is talked about is the patient's life. Therefore, I think it is normal for curiosity, fantasies and a sense of mystery about the therapist's life to be aroused.
a lynn