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RNRebbitzin
Supporter

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr 2006
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4/24/06 1:52 PM
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There currently is no termination. The client was seeing someone before who has retired. The current therapist was the original therapist from several years ago. They are both married woman, so we are not talking about any togetherness , one on one relationship , just a friendship. By the way it is the client not the therapist who would like the friendship. The therapist has been very professional during the entire therapeutic prosses. Whould it be safe to say, that this is a fantasy of the client? And if so, should they confront the issue, I do believe that it was spoken about during the beginning of the initial therapy several years ago. The client is very reality based, and does know that it would be very unllikely to happen. But, what is the harm if they would both agree many many years down the line??? After all kulanu yehudim? Or, how whould you recommed getting the client to stop obsessing about it? She has confided in me that the therapist is always on her mind, and how much she admires and emmulates the person. She is not envious of her life, but would like life with less hardships.......................not too many financial difficulties and a loving ,supportive family, moving in the same social circles, etc .
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RNRebbitzin
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RNRebbitzin
Supporter

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr 2006
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4/30/06 3:43 PM
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Dr.Lynn, Actually the therapist did mention what you did earlier about the relationship being somewhat unequal.........and that for this reason it wouldn't be a good idea. She did also mention that perhaps if it would have been in a different time and under different circumstances things might have been different Do, therapist genuinely care about their clients? What if someone really is a loser and there is no way for the person to improve , should the therapist continue to give false hope and encouragement to that person? When you leave your office for the day do ever think about or try to feel your patients pain.........and have a sincere desire to help that person? Or do therapists sit around and poke fun of how pathetic some of their patients truly are. Don't' you ever get tired of hearing the same old complaints, and giving out the same "shpeel to everyone? Maybe, being a true friend is all they really need to feel happy and good about themselves. Not have to pay someone in order to have some attention and understanding, and perhaps some positive regard. Are most therapist, content with their job at the end of the day?/ I would hope so, otherwise I do feel much sorrow and empathy for their poor patients. Hope you can answer these questions honestly...............it is something that I have always been curious about. Thank you in advance
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RNRebbitzin
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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
Psychologist

Posts: 914
Joined: Feb 2005
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5/25/06 12:16 AM
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RN- Sorry about the oversight- I was not dodging your questions. I can only answer for myself, and I do not think I am a fair sample, because I am a very unorthodox orthodox shrink. I have genuine feelings for my patients and I tell them, when I feel it is appropriate. I do not subscribe to the "blank screen" model of therapy and I am very self disclosing; I "call it like I see it". I try to provide an environment of acceptance and safety yet I am also confrontational. I am reminded of a rabbi friend of mine who says his job entails: "comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable". I do not "poke fun" at patients unless they are clear I am doing it affectionately. I also poke fun at myself. I do not believe in harboring false hope, but rather learning to accept reality. I feel there is so much depth to the 12-step "serenity prayer", asking G-D for the "courage to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference". I think that many therapists tell themselves that they don't disclose to protect the patient, but in reality, I think they are protecting themselves. Even therapists can be scared of intimacy, honesty and vulnerability. I have more respect for therapists who are in treatment themselves, and am appalled when I hear that so many therapists either were never in treatment or stopped shortly after getting licensed. I am "out" to my patients that I go to a therapist, b/c I truly believe in the product and the process. I want them to know that I put my money where my mouth is (literally), and I know what it's like to be in the "hot seat" on a weekly basis. At the end of the day, I am not only content, I am energized and feel I have the best job in the world (for me).
If you are willing to share, what has been your experience with therapy? If I did not answer your questions, please ask more. A Lynn
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RNRebbitzin
Supporter

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr 2006
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5/25/06 3:32 PM
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Dr. Lynn, I'd like to thank you for your very honest answer. I have actually had very good experiences with therapists. I have been fortunate to have frum very caring and real therapist. They too have been quite open about most of their feelilngs towards their patients. They have self-disclosed...............which I believe is more helpful than harmful. What I do find difficult though is being in such an intense relationship which can only stay at the therapuetic level. I have been in therapy with women that are basically my contemporaries, and had I not been in therapy with them would have very much liked to be socially connected with them. This is where the problem lies. I do accept it though, and I completely understand the ramifications, for I too am in the health profession. We are human, and have feelings. I suppose it is equally difficult for the therapist, to just shut out evey emotion when they get home to their families. I can also understand that perhaps it is even more uncomfortable for them, when they contantly run into their clients. As, for myself, I get a nice feeling when my therapist acknowleges my presence when I am out and about. Although she does have a very appropriate rule, that she will only acknowlege her client if they do so first. That way she doesn't have to worry about embarrasing the people who have a stigma about therapy. I myself am very pro-self improvement, unlike many others, which you too mentioned. I appreciate your reply, and would truly enjoy continuing on with the subject. If it suits you as well of course. In this busy world of husssle and bustle it is always nice to just relax a bit and have a nice conversation. I tip my hat off to all the good therapists...............it is genuinly a gift........for I only know how mentally exhausting it must be to have deep caring and compassion for one's cleint. I salute you and the many therapist out there---- Thank you for being Human. 
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RNRebbitzin
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ernie55B
Senior Supporter

Posts: 419
Joined: Mar 2005
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5/25/06 9:54 PM
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Hi Dr. Lynn,
I just wanted you to know that my therapist takes the exact same approach as you do. I find it very refreshing. She tells me about the humanistic aspects of her life; the problems her children and husband face and how they deal with it. I have so much more respect and admiration for her than the stuffy lady(?) I wasted my time with for 4 years. She would not give me as much as a smile- ever! The only reason I stayed with her, was because I believe she spoke the truth about what was going on with me. So I really shouldn't say wasted time with- rather, suffered with.
I just came from my appointment, as a matter of fact. It was quite intense in that I tried to convey how deeply I was suffering emotionally. I happen to believe that unless you have experienced it first hand, you cannot really understand what it means to be perfectly healthy physically, yet feel that it is so painful to stay alive.
She says she is convinced that someday I will feel better; I tell her I don't believe that is possible. After being in this situation for 35 years, I truly believe the odds of improvement are slim. That is why I refuse to let go of anorexia. I see it as a passive suicide. At least the family won't have to deal with the stigma of a 'regular' suicide. I know a frum girl who died of anorexia. Noone is saying she killed herself.
You asked me a while back what ever happened with the ECT. The MD who does it did not hold out much hope for success in my case, due to various factors. The best he could say was that it can't hurt. My feeling is, that as long as I am here I cannot invest the 3 days a week for 2,3,4 weeks or so and the short term memory loss for something that doesn't have that good a chance of working. I run a business, and customers would not understand me taking so much time off. If I were dead, on the other hand, that they would understand. In other words, as long as I am here, I feel a sense of obligation to everyone and everything. If I were not here, I would not have to worry about stuff like that.
Am I a disgusting human being or what? I have 3 kids and yet I think about this, alot.
I spent 5 hours last Shabbos afternoon lying in bed thinking about how many pills it would take..... (Can you take meds. on Shabbos to kill yourself? - My Pdoc. chuckled at that)
I guess that is a good update as to how I am doing.
Hope you are well. As always, thanks for your input.
Ernie
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gad
Senior Supporter

Posts: 1458
Joined: Jan 2006
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5/28/06 8:03 PM
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Ernie, Humans are supposed to take care of their young. And help other people. And look after themselves. Etc...
But when someone has to work with great difficulty to accomplish this, then his effort is considered exceptional. Lefum Tzaro Agro (The reward is according to the effort, or pain).
Perhaps, if it is comforting to you, I can quote "Ein Hakodosh Boruch Hu bo btrunia im briosov" (G-d does not demand from his creations more than they can handle), and if G-d puts us in a difficult situation, he gives us additonal strength to enable us to cope.
I know that right now you don't feel this way, but sometimes just by reflecting on this, it can give us the encouragement to want to go on.
I know you'll take this in the way it was intended, in the spirit of friendship and caring, even if you disagree on certain points. (I'm optimistic that you won't disagree on the whole thing.)
May we hear only good news.
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RNRebbitzin
Supporter

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr 2006
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5/28/06 8:11 PM
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Hi Ernie, No, I don't mind, after all the topic is on transference. I appreciate your honesty. I feel the same way towards my therapist.............feelings of freindship though, nothing else. I was just curious as to a therapist's point of view. There in lies the question for Dr.Lynn. Good luck to you, I know the difficulties of being divorced and alone,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,With Hashem's help it will pass, at thinks will be good Kol tov RN
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RNRebbitzin
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Debbi
Senior Supporter

Posts: 488
Joined: Oct 2005
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5/28/06 9:28 PM
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Hi Ernie, and RN, i think that the best way to get beyond these feelings (and I believe that "getting beyond" is the operative word here) is to discuss this issue with your therapist.
It is unethical and it could cost your therapist her license and career if she became involved with you as a friend. There are rules, aws and ethics in any proffession. You are a nurse, I'm sure you know the guide lines in your job, as far as patients are concerned. It is wrong for a therapist to befriend a client. I dont know if there is a statue of limitations. Perhaps after you stop seeing each other as therapist client for a certain amount of time, then maybe it would be allowed? I dont know the answer to that. I'm sure Dr Lynn can answer that one.
I understand those feelings all too well. I have suffered those feelings of wishing and fantasizing that my T would be friends outside of the therapy hour. After 6 years of therapy three or four times a week, I can finally talk openly about my feelings. If your T is honest and proffessional, she will see this as part of her work with you, and she will be open to understanding and working through these feelings.
I am sure that therapists have clients who they feel closer to, or more "in tune" with, just as I am sure they think about their clients even at the end of the day. It is indeed a unique relationship, and I believe one that presents great opportunity to both client and therapist, if it used in a moral and proffessional manner.
RN, it sounds as tho you are experiencing a major transference issue, one that is painful and uncomfortable. Talk to your T about it. She is the one to get you beyond these uncomfortable feelings. best wishes. debbi
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Debbi
Senior Supporter

Posts: 488
Joined: Oct 2005
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5/28/06 11:19 PM
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Dr lynn, I wonder though, how you (or any therapist) feels when a client discusses his/her feelings about you. Whether they wish you were their father, or their friend, etc . Does it make u feel empowered, and kind of all powerful, over this [poor] patient who has such strong feelings about her therapist! I have always felt so stupid, and vulnerable telling my T, that I wish she would like me, or how hard it is for me when she goes away. Currently my feelings are not so intense. I wonder if they are less intense, because I have opened up to her and talked about my feelings? It really is a complicated relationship. I wonder if therapists get sick of hearing how their clients "need/want" them so much?? debi (p.s, u probably cant say how u "really" feel, because your actual patients might be reading over here... perhaps u can talk about your [annonymous] colleagues...
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div01
Junior Supporter

Posts: 20
Joined: May 2006
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5/29/06 12:19 AM
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I've been following this forum with interest. If therapy goes well positive feelings for one's therapist will emerge. The way I see it, it's a transference thing. It's always about me, not my shrink. It's normal to feel this way when we're being gratified. And don't forget, our therapist doesn't come home with us and leave socks on the floor, walk around with bad body odor, forget to bring home the milk, etc. All the myriad incidents that have potential to frustrate partners..... All our therapist does, let's hope, is sit there and support us. It's normal to feel infatuated at this point. Enter a minor/major frustration with shrink. Enter another one. And one more, if you will. How do we deal with THAT? Are we still infatuated then? Here's the real test! Do we deal with our frustrations with shrink in a healthy way or the same old way? The good thing is, Shrink is (hopefully, otherwise we'd better find another one) emotionally healthy and with healthy boundaries. So we can tantrum, sulk, or whatever method we have in our underdeveloped toolbox and we can (hopefully) expect a healthy response. (Whereas other significant folks in our life may not have those tools). So, assuming we're seeing competent shrinks therapy is the place to feel safe to express our deepest goings-on and be met with a healthy response for a change.
On the topic of books, these may be of interest: 1. ''In Confidence: Four Years of Therapy" by Roberta Israeloff 2. ''What Therapists Learn About Themselves and How They Learn It'' Edited by Edward Messner, James E. Groves, and Jonathan H. Schwartz Three other books, I read them a long time ago so I don't remember whether the content is on same topic of therapists talking about their experiences as shrinks: 1. Letters To a Young Therapist by Mary Pipher 2. Talk is Not Enough by Willard Gaylin, M.D. 3. The Art of The Obvious by Bruno Bettelheim and Alvin A. Rosenfeld
Happy Reading!
Edited: 5/29/06 at 3:10 PM by div01
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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
Psychologist

Posts: 914
Joined: Feb 2005
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5/30/06 5:51 AM
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Debbi- I am writing what I really feel, and I know some of my patients read this message board. That is my point. I am the same here as in my office. When I talk about my experiences in this forum, I don't identify anyone. As for your other question, when patients talk about their feelings towards me, as Div01 pointed out, sometimes it's about me (in the sense that they get different responses from me than other people in their life, for example- what Winnicott called "the corrective emotional experience"), but mostly, it is THEIR feelings/wishesfantasies, etc. about me or what I represent to them. I almost always find these discussions interesting and I often comment/validate that the patient feels comfortable enough to take the emotional risk to share those feelings with me. I also enjoy reading Yalom and Harry Stack Sullivan. Div01- Thanks for your comments and the book references. Welcome to the board! a lynn
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Panda613
Supporter

Posts: 37
Joined: Aug 2006
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8/1/06 5:51 PM
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Hello Dr.Lynn, I'm new to this site, it's quite interesting. A question: Is it a normal occurance to have transference feelings for your therapist? I have been in therapy for a few years with the same therapist.....................she is very professional, but beyond the transference, I think I may be obsessing over her, nothing of the s-xual nature, just wanting to be on a level of friendship. We are both woman..............frum of course. I have just gone through an extremely difficult divorce. I need all the support I can get, so I believe this is where the obsessing is coming from. I just want to know everything about her and her family etc.............I have the need to call her answering service just to hear her recorded voice...and if by chance she answers I will hang up What should I do to curtail these thoughts??? I am a person who is regarded with much integrity,so I feel awful about the whole situation. I want to respect her boundaries, but am finding very difficult. Please share some insight about the situation, I am too embarrased to speak to my therapist about it, I wouldn't want her to think that I am a nut case, because I am not. Just in need of a supportive friend, thats all Thank you in advance for your assistance........... What do I need to do in order to curtail these feelings?? I don't
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Panda613
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