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TOPIC TITLE: Phasing out of day hospital probs.
Created On 2/4/09 2:25 AM
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mouse
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2/4/09 2:25 AM
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Ok, today is going to be my first day phasing out of the day hospital program I'm currently attending. To say the least, I'm nervous. I'm doing better in some aspects (self injury and stuff) but in other ways I'm actually doing worse (suicidal thoughts --- frequency and intensity.) To make matters worse, the individual therapist I see in the program is on vacation starting today for the next several days. I guess I'm scared. I'm scared of being stepped down in a program before I may be ready (but will I ever be ready???.) I'm scared of myself at this point because I know I'm not exactly the safest person to be (after all, I do want to kill myself quite a bit.) I'm not sure if leaving the program and going back to work is a good idea but I see no alternatives as there is little they can do for me. That is the most upsetting part in some ways. The doctor in the program and my doctor I see privately both agree that there is little that can be done medically. It leaves me feeling more hopeless in a way than when I entered the program. Furthermore, I need to leave the program because of financial issues. I'm just worried that I'll land up back in the program in a few months from now because I can't handle life. I don't want that. I'm going back to work in a week and a day and I'm nervous that it won't go well. I want so badly to do DBT just to end the day hospital cycle I seem to have started (second time in day hospital in about a year) but there are no programs near me covered by insurance and at a time I can handle. Any ideas???


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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downandout
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2/4/09 9:09 AM
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Munkster, I have no advice, but I just wanted to say that I'm really in the same boat as you. I'm in a day hospital program now, I'm going to be stepping down in like two weeks, I don't have an outside therapist to see yet, and the worst is that I can't even go back to work because I'm pregnant and due in not too long... So it's like going from a week of being busy with therapy and having the support of other people - to nothing. I'm really scared. I've also been looking into DBT and there's nothing in my area. I'm just plain scared, scared, scared of going from a structured week to absolutely nothing, and also not having the outlet to just talk about things anymore.
Good luck to you. I hope you come up with some good ideas.
D&O


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I want to love my life. My desire is what counts.
 
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seb613
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2/4/09 11:57 AM
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Sorry to Interupt, but do you know any day hospital programs? Iwions?if you have any sugggestng as in the hospital twelve days for suicidal thoughts and I was wondering if you have any suggestions?
 
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downandout
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2/4/09 4:29 PM
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It kind of depends where you are located. There are day hospital programs all over the place, but your best bet would probably be to call Relief - I'm sure they'd have some suggestions for you based on where you live. Their number is (718) 431 9501. (I think.)
Good luck!


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gad
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2/4/09 7:30 PM
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Originally posted by: munkster
Any ideas?

I don't know if this is good or not, but I typed "Help lines U.S." in google and this was the first listing:

http://www.thehelpline.net/counselors.html

Again, I have no idea if this is good. But I'm posting it in case you want to look into it as a temporary aid for now.
 
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Debbi
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2/26/09 8:03 AM
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I too am in the same predicament, although my DBT program doesnt phase out, u just stop cold turkey.

Its a three hour program per day. Very intense but has been extremely helpful, except that now that my treatment is ending in three weeks, i am plauged by thoughts of suicide as my only way out of the intensity of my pain.
Yesterday i did a trial run on slashing my wrist. I was surprised at how simple it was.
I have put SO much effort into making this DBT program work for me, and it did work.

I allowed myself to trust and connect with the therapist i worked with, we both worked hard and now its ending, and I'm not ready.
Their reccomendation is for me to continue in one of their other programs.

Its too difficult to begin all over again, new therapist, new team, new fellow group members. I'm tired and just want it all to end. I need more time in this program and with the therapist i am working so well with.

My old therapist, the one who pushed me into this program, is telling me now that she will see me, "If that is what the program is reccommending". Originally she had told me that once i graduate from the DBT program, we can continue our work.
Alas this is not happening, and i have no more energy to fight.

So here I am:
*allowing the yetzer horah to control the direction of my thoughts towards death,
*ending a 6mth program which has given me a direction for my day to day existence,
*no therapist to continue with,
*no psychiatrist, (I've stopped all my meds anyway),
*a large family and husband to take care of.

I feel like i'm indulging in a pity party, yet i think i'm just tired of the struggle, and am ready to give up.

thank u all for listening, and hoping that all of u are coping and have better skills than I.
 
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Aba
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2/26/09 11:50 AM
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I'm glad you gained from the DPT it seems most people do. Ema just started I hope she gains as much as the rest of you. We had a joint session yesterday and her T wants her to teach the skills to me also.
I'm sorry you feel like you backed in to a corner with nowhere to turn I hope you find the strength to keep on going. Your absence during the past few weeks has been obvious and I would hate to think it may become permanent.

Kol Tuv,
Aba


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"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
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4702125952
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2/26/09 7:25 PM
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You have a large family? You want to 'end it all'? I'm flabbergasted. You have a responsibility to your family. What the heck; they prefer a depressed mother to a dead mother. What do you mean you stopped your meds? You have a responsibility to the children you birthed into the world and all their future offspring. Do what you need to do and get moving! Why is this all about you? Grieve your losses, rage at those who mistreated you, take your meds, get the therapy and get on with it.

I know this is tough talk--I need to hear this, too.
 
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mouse
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2/27/09 1:37 AM
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470...

I rarely get as mad as I am right now. Who are you to judge someone? A large family is no better or worse, more or less important or deserving than a small family. How can you be so callous as to say basically "get on with life" when obviously someone is in quite a bit of pain? I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not mad. Maybe I just pity you because you are so clueless as to how others may feel. Or maybe I just envy you, that you have not had the same life experiences that lead to such difficult behaviors as self injury. Regardless, getting on with life isn't the solution. It doesn't work like that. If it did, don't you think people just would? Don't you think that would be easier? Sometimes people need to be dealt with with compassion -- even if in YOUR eyes they don't need that. Debbi, I, and others with self injurious behaviors do not need your judgemental comments, or those of others, rather support and chizuk to keep going. I have only been offended once before on FrumSupport (and did not voice it.) I regret not saying what I thought then but for now you've got a...raging munky.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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downandout
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I agree 100% with munkster. I could not believe my eyes when I saw what was written to Debbi. When somebody is in that situation, yelling at them - and doing it based on other people's needs - is invalidating their pain and cannot be of any help whatsoever. In fact, it is probably extremely detrimental. At one point when I was in a worthless hospital, seeing a worthless doctor, he told me that I was selfish for overdosing, since I have a daughter and I'm pregnant with another baby. I never felt so horrible as I did then. Did he think I wasn't caring about my family? But when you're hurting so much, it doesn't work to think like that.
470, I think you owe Debbi and others a huge apology. That must have hurt very much, to see what you'd written.
Debbi, huge (((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))) to you. I hope you feel okay, and realize that what was written is not the view of others. We all care about you very much, and hope that you will get the right help for your own sake - so that you can feel better and in not as much pain as you are in right now.


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I want to love my life. My desire is what counts.
 
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gad
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2/28/09 10:11 PM
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I think that 470 meant well, and probably was hoping that her message would help jolt Debbi into a positive direction.

But as munkster and d&o wrote, it can be hurtful and not have a constructive effect.

Just a few words to Debbi. We can't judge you. We don't know what you are going through. But we know that you are suffering, and in a lot of mental pain and anguish.
We all (including 407) wish you a speedy recovery, and that you may soon be able to go on with your life in a healthy and happy way.


Edited: 2/28/09 at 10:20 PM by gad
 
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Debbi
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i came back here a few times, and couldnt get myself to talk again. i felt misunderstood and guilty too. Although i knew that she was only trying to help.

I actually had my 6 children before my life crashed at my feet.
And i think in my post i tried to make it clear that I HAVE put much effort into healing myself. Does anyone believe that going to a hospital EVERY day for three hours to work on my personality is not doing ANYTHING to help myself???

i am in a tremendous amount of emotional pain right now. So painful that death seems like a breeze in comparison.
I know i "should" be grateful for having such beautiful children.
I "should" be glad that i have a wonderful hsbnd and that i have breath in my body etc etc.....I know what I should be feeling, and yet I dont feel that way.
Instead I feel alone, abandoned, sad, hopeless, helpless, afraid and a host of other feelings.

ending the program is bringing up past feelings of being alone, and knowing that no one would save me from being molested. Even my mom, or mostly mom. I wanted, needed her so badly to acknowledge the bad things happening to me in the middle of the night, yet she didnt, couldn't. And so every time i end a significant realtionship, all the old feelings from five years old, come rushing back and flooding my being with fear, and self loathing.

wonder if anyone gets it?
feel so alone in my pain.

thanks to u who said that u do understand the horror of emotional pain. And 470 i am not angry or upset by your remarks, i felt hurt and guilty bc i am sure there must be some truth in your words.
however if only i could just get on with it, as u suggested.

"getting on with it" would be a dream come true!
 
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mouse
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3/2/09 10:05 PM
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Debbi, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time and took the post to heart. Do not wait for an apology. Have the self esteem to know it may not be coming but that you are better than that and can go on without an apology. Some people just don't get it...470, may be one of them. That's ok, so long as YOU get it. And so long as YOU get one day things will be different and you will be better. Keep working at it and who knows???


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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Aba
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May I suggest a truce not everyone says the right thing at the right time all the time. If you don't believe me just ask my wife .
Kol Tuv,
Aba


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"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
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4702125952
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I apologize to alll those who feel misunderstood and under-compassioned. Mental and emotional pain is real and agonizing. I know that. I have to admit that I did not read the details of all the posts on this thread. I read about a large family and feeling suicidal and that just got to me.

Without going into the details, I've lived through just about every challenge you can think of: physical, mental and emotional abuse as a child growing up with two mentally ill parents, divorce and the death of my youngest child. I have gone through depressive episodes and still struggle with them--probably will for the rest of my life in some form. But I can tell you that what has kept me going is the determination that my children not suffer what I did--if I could help it. From the depths of hell, I've dragged myself on, gotten my degree, taken my meds, DBT, therapist after therapist and still in counseling; worked, switched jobs many times till I found what worked for me and still work full time to support my family and myself. Most days its hard to get out of bed and get moving but most of the time I do.

I know what gehinnom in this world is. I struggle with it daily. You've got to have pity on your innocent children. They are suffering. Someone told me: "Once you are a parent--everything changes." Most of the time I still feel like the needy, hurting child, pining for the childhood I never had. I have to consciously, sometimes with more success than at others, make an effort to tell myself: I am the mother. Mothers give. I have to give. My children are kids and needy. I'm the parent. I have to repeat this over and over. I have to connect with parents who are heallthier than I am and visit and talk and ge t advice and vent so that I can continue to be the parent.

It gives me a reason to keep on living and growing and learning. Your children are suffering. Please, please get well so they can have a mother.
 
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Debbi
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i am so so sorry to hear how much you have suffered and still do suffer. It sounds like hell to me.
i admire your courage and strength. may it continue, and may you see much nachas from your children.

and i will try to be a good mother.
 
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4702125952
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May HaShem give you strength.

Good Shabbos

 
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mouse
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470...Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry we touched a nerve and hope you have it easier some time soon.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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4702125952
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Thanks Munkster. The point of my writing was not so much to kvetch (although we all need to do that sometimes) but to share what I believe we need to do to get us moving. Its the future of our children. Once we make the choice to marry and give birth our life is not our own anymore. I have an obligation to my children. I suffered: if I haven't learned to do better with my own children than what was done to me, then I've not moved our lives forward any. The answer to the pain, I believe, is to live life purposefully. If we have no purpose, then what DO we have?
 
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downandout
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Just getting back to the original topic on this thread...
I'm being officially discharged from my IOP (intensive outpatient program) tomorrow, after a few weeks of phasing out, doing less time. Frankly, I'm scared. I can't go back to work because I'm due to have a baby in two months, so practically speaking it just doesn't make sense. I'm scared of all those empty days ahead - what will I think, what will I do? I don't want to go back to just lying around the whole day - but I'm afraid that if I don't have any real schedule, I may just fall back into that rut.
I've made myself a calendar and pencilled in all the little things I have to do - but it feels so worthless, so trivial, so mundane. Like, I'm done with this IOP, I'm supposed to be feeling better (which is not necessarily the truth) - shouldn't I be doing something more major with my life? Feeling more fulfilled? And I know, I'm supposed to feel fulfilled in my role as a Jewish mother - but I don't. It's hard for me - the endless hours of taking care of my daughter - although I love her so much - and the same, old, everyday tasks around the house.
I'm just afraid of the emptiness, afraid of the lack of fulfillment, afraid of not having a schedule.... Afraid because I don't really know how much strength I have now. I've been held at a stable place b/c of this program.... but how much is really me? And will I make it? Do I want to?


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Holding on
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I dont really have any answers (nor the time to properly respond) but i just wanted to say that im thinking about you... (((((downandout))))) - (if ok)
i think its normal to be feeling like this now, being scared and wondering, like u said, 'how much is really me?' but if it means anything, i really truly believe you're going to be ok. You're stronger than you know. You will make it, IY"H.
Much Hatzlacha!

Holding on
 
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Aba
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D&O,
I think Holding on is right that the way you feel is quite normal. Is there any volunteer work in your neighborhood that you can add to your schedule?

All the best,
Aba


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"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
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frumsw
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It's very hard not to have a structure to ones day-I have a problem with that even when I'm not depressed. A few suggestions: a craft project to work on a home that could be finished by the due date, taking a course or a class(handicraft, cooking, anything fun), starting a major book that you didn't have time for before, get involved in shidduchim (it's very time consuming) and note that even the most active woman generally starts slowing down towards the end of the pregnancy. It's not the time for "major accomplishments" when the body is busy accomplishing it's job. I also had a hard time being happy with the ordinary day to day tasks but I'd like to be. One thing everybody needs is social support and that is a very important thing to set into place. hatzlacha.


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downandout
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I actually would love to take piano lessons - but being that I can't afford either a piano or the lessons.... That's not really a possibility. I know though that that is something that would make me feel good and fill my time somewhat.
About the social support... That's the really hard part. I never had any close friends (was always afraid to make them), and in the last few months I've totally stopped talking to even the casual friends I've had. I don't have any social support right now - just a mentor in the community and a cousin of mine who's helpful. I'm really scared to get back in touch with the old people, and frankly, I don't really want to. I feel like I'm on a different planet than them, like I've gone through stuff that they'd never understand.... I just feel like I'm somewhere beyond the normal, everyday chit-chat. I suppose I could try to make new friends, but from where? And I'm afraid.. I've never really trusted anybody; I'm scared of being really me. I'm afraid of rejection, of finding out they don't want me or like me - so I'd rather just keep the barriers up and never try in the first place.


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I want to love my life. My desire is what counts.
 
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gad
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You may want to order Rabbi Teitelbaum's instruction cassettes:
http://www.mostlymusic.com/teitelbaum-learn-plat-casio-p-1432.html

And you may want to use this virtual keyboard:
http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resources_ftp/client_ftp/ks2/music/piano/index.htm
 
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gad
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I think that a mentor, a helpful cousin, your family, people on this forum, are all social contact.



As for making future friends, and the fear of rejection:

I think that the reason for having friends is in order to help and support one another.

So suppose someone had a friend for two months, and then they parted ways. Still, in those two months they helped one another.

Hopefully they will part ways in a peaceful and respectful manner. And the two months of having helped each other is a Mitzva that they both shared. And the support that they each derived during those two months can be beneficial for the future.
 
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mouse
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d&o, I definitely get your concerns. I was in a similar place on more than one occasion. Thank G-d, this time when I discharged from day hospital, the transition seems to have been smoother and more ready. I'm not as attached to the day hospital staff and calling them as much as I did last time or thinking about going back as much. In general, I think I'm doing better this time. (I sure hope so.)


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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Aba
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You may be able to find a free used keyboard on either cregslist http://newyork.craigslist.org/zip/ or one of the recycle lists http://www.Freecycle.org, http://www.freesharing.org, and http://www.sharingisgiving.org to name a few.
I got a really nice wooden swing set for free through cregslist last year.
I wouldn't be to surprised a neighbor has one lying around also.

Kol Tuv,
Aba


-------------------------
"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden

Edited: 3/17/09 at 8:44 AM by Aba
 
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downandout
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Thanks for all your advice, guys (and gals).

Munkster, I'm glad that you're doing better this time. I was kind of wondering how your transition ended up going (since you're the one who started this thread).


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Debbi
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how are u Down and Out? hope u have found ways to keep yourself busy.

i am ending my program in one week.
alot of the symptoms that i originally started with have returned full force. I was told that this often happens as transition is occuring. i have agreed to continue in the same place but a different program. I will have around ten days in between. My therapist said that i wud still be a patient in the hospital, but jst wouldnt be actually in the program! so confusing. She did say that continuing my treatment is important, so i could come and see her every day if i needed to.

i dont know whats wrong with me. i'm taking my meds, im following the teams recommendation about continuing for another 6mths, my therapist will support me through the transition, and yet i feel like dying! makes no sense at all.
Im trying so hard to think about pesach and start getting things done.
i am way behind, and i have no idea how pesach will happen, but i"m guessing it just will.

tonight as i was cleaning my room, all i could think of was that i should throw out as much as i can b/c if i die i dont want anyone to see any mess. i made a pile of all my books, and only kept the ones i thought i wouldnt mind if ppl knew i owned.
What is wrong with me???
Why am i thinking that i will not survive?
i have no real plans to die. u know how they always ask, do u have a plan?
i dont and yet it is on my mind.
 
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downandout
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Debbi - ((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))
I get what you're saying about wanting to die - and not knowing why. I've also had the feeling in the past - my thoughts just revolving around dying and dying and dying when really everything was kind of flowing smoothly. Therapy, basic care, help for my daughter.... and then boom! the thoughts just come, and you feel like that is all you have.
Rooting for you.... and I'm glad you're having a good transition. I hope the 10 days in between go well, too. But it's nice that you're continuing with your therapist - don't have to start everything fresh again.
My transition is going okay. My calendar is helping - just that when I wake up in the morning I know what I'm going to be doing and it doesn't feel all empty and worthless and pointless. I ended up being pretty busy last week - between other appointments, doing summer shopping for my daughter, etc. This week I have a little less planned, but I hope everything still stays okay. So far, though, I think that the anticipation of this time was worse than it actually is. I hope it stays that way.
Actually, I may have a piano. Somebody found out about one for me - a guy who's probably moving and is willing to sell for really cheap. Thing is, he's not sure he's moving - and if he doesn't move, he ain't gonna sell. So I'm praying that he moves.... It would be really nice.


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I want to love my life. My desire is what counts.
 
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gad
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3/22/09 3:14 PM
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Quote

Originally posted by: Debbi
it is on my mind.

I think that sometimes we may have certain thoughts on our mind because we are worried about things. And that can lead to disturbing thoughts. And those thoughts make us even more stressed, because we are worried that we are having such thoughts. And it snowballs.

And especially before Pesach, when most housewives get very tense about all the work they feel they need to do.

I think that the best way to deal with these thoughts is to try to push them out, and to not even think about them (or worry about having them).

I know that this is easier said than done. But I think that trying this approach may help.

Chag kosher vesomayach.


Edited: 3/22/09 at 3:15 PM by gad
 
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mouse
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3/27/09 4:20 AM
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OK, this is for 470 (and no, she/he did not request it, it's being offered.) I am sorry if way up above I was too hard or abrasive in giving feedback regarding how certain situations should be dealt with. I now have a clearer picture that 470 really is trying to help; perhaps, I didn't like the message or the "wrapping" but I do believe that this is a caring, sensitive individual. I may not see eye-to-eye on all situations and responses (for example, what occured earlier) but I do believe I should not have gotten as angry as I did. For that I apologize. I hope this is a complete apology. I hope come Yom Kippur the forgiveness is there.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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4702125952
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3/27/09 5:23 PM
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Munkster and all,

I forgive you and was not offended in the least. Life is tough, especially for those of us who feel things deeply and are aware people. Did anybody read "Stop Whining Start Living" by Dr. L. Schlessinger? I know some of you may want to throw tomatoes (or rotten eggs) at me for being so tough. It's a good book, more compassionate than it (or she) sounds.

Good Shabbos all.
 
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Debbi
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3/30/09 10:03 PM
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please dont judge me.
on shabbos morning smthing happened and i was in a tremendous amount of pain. i woke up early morning and the room was dark and i was in pain, and i took a bottle of pills from my drawer and began to swallow them. bh i stopped before i took too many. hsbnd took me to emergency room, and after an IV line and some blood tests etc i was sent home.

im in so much pain.
its hard to keep struggling with this amount of suffering.
i know its difficult to understand, but i dont want anyone to tell me how bad i am, i KNOW how bad i am, i just want someone to be kind and understanding.
i know i sound pathetic, i'm just at the end of my rope.

thank u for listening.
debbi
 
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gad
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3/30/09 11:30 PM
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In the evening prayers we say, "Lay us down, our Father, in peace; and stand us up, our King, for good life and peace..."

Your post gives more meaning to this prayer.

I hope that you feel better soon, and that you are able to post good news soon.
 
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mouse
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3/31/09 4:35 AM
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Debbi, i hope you feel better. They sent you home?!?!?! Just get safer soon. You'd be sorely missed in this world.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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mouse
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3/31/09 4:36 AM
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btw, i guess i should have said this before, maybe this deserves a thread in self injury


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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downandout
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3/31/09 12:05 PM
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Debbi, (((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))).
I know what you mean. Just someone there to validate the way you are feeling, to tell you that you feel pain and that it's all right to feel pain.... To tell you that now you feel like this, and its okay that now you're feeling like this. So I'm telling you that.
Wish I could be more there for you than this.
I hope you're safe.
D&O


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I want to love my life. My desire is what counts.
 
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mouse
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5/26/09 3:52 AM
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OK, this topic hasn't been written in for a while so here goes. I'm not sure if this is gonna be one big moan and groan session. It may be. I think I may have discharged from the day hospital too soon. I look like everything is fine on the outside for the most part. But then just take a slightly closer look and my life is falling apart. My contract at work has not been renewed for next year partly due to the fact that I was unable to fulfill my responisbililities at work due to depression and related issues. (Also partly due to excessive absences from Jewish holidays and disability which is clearly illegal, but I'm not fighting that because there are so many other reasons that I'm not rehired that it's just them being really dumb, I think.) Then I look at my house which is a blooming mess. So bad that I won't allow people in because I'm embarrassed. I want to get help with it but it's an organizational thing. I have to do it myself but I'm too tired. I think the tired thing is too hard to figure if it is physical or psychological at this point. I just went to the doctor and at the very least I'm anemic and they're trying to figure out why by doing more extensive testing. (Which would be a lot easier if I had the energy to do.) A number of other tests were not quite right either. I want to go back to the day hospital but I'm not sure they could help. I want to have the summer with my kids too. If I went to the day hospital, I'd have no real goals at this point. I don't know what I need or want. I can't figure out what is depression and what is a physical problem. I'm so confused and tired and tired and confused. My kid's homework isn't even being completed entirely and I feel so guilty. She has to memorize some stuff for a prize. She is having minor issues with it and I'm too tired to work with her on it. The school is willing to cut down on what she needs to memorize because I can't do it with her as much. They are even willing to send over a teen to the house to help. The problem is we aren't awake enough hours of the day to do it!!! We get home and go to sleep because I'm too tired to care for the kids. I feel like such a bad parent right now. I'm getting homework basics done...just not the extra stuff they stick on us that neither my daughter or I have interest or energy for.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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gad
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5/26/09 11:06 AM
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Maybe you can put a lot of these things on the shelf for now.
 
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