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TOPIC TITLE: Psychologist recommended by Rabbonim is VERY disappointing.
Created On 9/27/11 2:34 PM
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NEEDADVICE
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9/27/11 2:34 PM
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Our relative, (an honors student), who was observant a short time ago, is seeing psychologist, because family heard Rabbonim recommend him.

We're wondering why Rabbonim recommend him, because:


1- After a few sessions Dr X (Psychologist recommended by Rabbonim) said that he cant/wont try to gently convince our female relative not to engage in extramarital s-x with an unemployed shoplifter, ex-Hasid with an Anti-Jewish blog, because our relative has too many issues (she's not on meds, totally exaggerated). He told the Rabbi he's clueless about what to do, but will continue seeing her, nevertheless. She is at a point in her life, where if a Dr would tell her she can do better, she'd pay attention. Family thinks sitting idly by and allowing her to continue the relationship, with no gentle coaxing to distance herself from this male friend, will hurt her and she'll hate herself for it, later on.

2- Dr X (Psychologist recommended by Rabbonim) goes to Torah classes of a Rabbi who recommends patients to him, despite that, Dr X (Psychologist recommended by Rabbonim) made our relative an appointment for Rosh Hashana. Interesting.......

3- Without asking the patient for permission, Dr X (Psychologist recommended by Rabbonim) spoke to the Rabbi for an hour about her issues.

Dr X (Psychologist recommended by Rabbonim) is VERY disappointing.

What would you do?



TextText


Edited: 9/27/11 at 4:16 PM by NEEDADVICE
 
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mouse
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First, I'd actually ask for forgiveness from this doctor given that you just gave him a pretty bad evaluation in a forum in which he'd be helpless and unable to explain his actions. I understand your frustrations; however, without first either speaking with him or the others involved, I would say it's difficult to say what is best. Sometimes in the long-term things look a lot better. Sometimes you need to look at the big picture rather than the immediate state of emergency. I'm not sure of your relation, but if it isn't immediate (for example, your son) you need to try to step back and be the observer rather than the judger (for lack of a better word) or criticizer. If the family it is not immediate family, I would recommend them to this site. Perhaps they can get some insights. Personally though, before anything else, I'd be asking for forgiveness and trying to get this post removed. But that's just liberal, ole, me.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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NEEDADVICE
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9/27/11 4:14 PM
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Ok, I hear your point. I switched it to Dr X. Is that a problem?
 
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mouse
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Seems good to me . I still don't have much of a solution, I'm afraid. Unless you are the immediate family, for example parents, them you are pretty helpless and even if you WERE the parents, you'd still be in a bad spot. Perhaps someone else has an idea of how to handle this as there are people on here from all walks of life with different experiences to bring to the table.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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hugs
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9/27/11 4:46 PM
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I just am curious. If this dr is not religious then why is it a problem that he made an appt for someone on r''h. If the patient is Jewish then she has the ability to tell him that she is not comfortable with an appt on that day but it's up to the Dr if he makes appts for that day.
Anyway, sounds like a really serious scary situation. I'm also wondering that if cousin of yours is sleeping around and doing these things maybe she is bipolar. I know when people are having a "high" when they are bipolar that can and does happen often. I am by no means diagnosing anyone but maybe it's something to think about or check into.
Gluck and ksiva vchasima tova!
 
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NEEDADVICE
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9/27/11 6:08 PM
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She hasnt been diagnosed by anyone as bipolar.

Everything went downhill rapidly since she went to a meeting at Footsteps (not sure if you heard of it, its where people who want to FREI out, get together) and liked the friendliness there and met this individual who is manipulating her and coaxing her to cut ties with parents and frumkeit totally.

Its a dangerous secretive organization, in my opinion.
 
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NEEDADVICE
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What did he do wrong? He's supposed to be knowledgable and sensitive to the frum lifestyle and the frum parents are suffering and paying him.
 
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mouse
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After reading what the above mentioned meeting place is about (I looked at the website) I must admit, it sounds like a BAD, BAD thing. It doesn't sound like they think torah can be mixed with a working "outside" world. I must agree something doesn't sound right. Only thing I did like about the organization is it mentions it's WONDERFUL sponsors....People who I would NEVER EVER EVER give my money to NOW THAT I KNOW (even before I probably wouldn't but now......oooooooooo.)
What I say next is VERY questionable...even to me. You may want to remove the name of the organization from your previous post as not to lead others who are already questioning how to "break free" to a "safe" place. I'm left hemming and hawing at what I just said though since I wrote what I wrote previously and don't want to sound like a censor AND because perhaps it will leave people aware such a place exists and to AVOID it until further investigation by a friend or family member of one's choice (sometimes a third party can be helpful.)

You in general sound very angry with this doctor. I'm not sure though you are directing your anger in the right direction. The person involved IS making his/her own decisions and the family (meaning you and direct family) need to make your position on these behaviors very, very, clear. If you find it intolerable tell the person when he/she changes ways you can then deal with them once again but at the moment he/she is bringing quite a bit of chaos into mny people's lives -- you won't be one of them. Sometimes it's hard, but necessary to take a firm, and yes, rigid stance against specific behaviors. Once again, I find myself questioning this reply but feel it should be "put out there" for a test run by others.
Ksiva vchasima tova


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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Ineedspace
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9/27/11 7:47 PM
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I'm gonna add my two cents. There are many people involved her, Dr. X, (the one rabbanim recommend) the Rabbi, you're family member and the "we" that you're talking about. Needadvice, I know the feeling of watching family members struggle, I assume you're feeling helpless, desperate, frustrated, and concerned. The information that you shared did you actually hear from that relative who actually sees Dr X? For all you know, things might be working out with her and Dr X. My sense is that YOU are having a hard time accepting the situation, perhaps it hurts you to watch your family member spiral downward, and that is a very difficult challenge to deal with. But not always can we take action, sometimes "doing" something may actually destroy rather than help. Did your family member reach out to you for help? Did she say anything about feeling disappointed with Dr X? If so, who's forcing her to stay stuck? And if it's YOU who's disappointed I would suggest that you work with your feelings, with your disappointment. And about that org. that you mentioned, yes it is a dangerous cult, but again, at this point I'm not sure that you can do anything "be" there for her. Show her your compassion and empathy, accept her, most pple who join that group are people who felt lonely and alone, and out of desperation for some love they join this group. Only by inviting her in maybe she won't have to turn to them. But I can hear that you're concerned and frustrated and it's coming from a place within you, because you care. You didn't mean to bad mouth anyone; you simply reached out.
 
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hugs
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munkster, I think I have to agree with you on censoring the name of the organization. I know I've never heard of it but did check it after seeing it on here. B''H I'm past the point of wanting to leave and wtvr but it could be dangerous to others who have that thought or feeling.
Also, I still do not think the Dr did anything wrong by making the appt on r''h (if this is what you were saying by what did he do wrong and then said he is causing ppl something) I think it is the patients prerogative and responsibility to say they can't keep that appt since it is a Jewish holiday. He is not responsible to keep track of Jewish holidays for his patients. Could be wrong about this and I def am open to hearing criticism.
 
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Ineedspace
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9/27/11 7:55 PM
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Oh, and about the appt on RH, again, it's hurting but we cannot control the world, can we? Does your relative have where to stay RH? Was your relative invited? It's very easy for us to want to control things and ensure that everything goes according to how we want. But it seems to me that your relative has gone through a lot and is now in a stage where he/she is taking care of herself in a way that's a threat to your family and that scares you. I get it, but I don't think that to act impulsively in panic will be helpful. Try to get someone professional to help yourself through this very difficult time, and I wish the best for you. I hope things will turn out well.
 
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NEEDADVICE
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Well how about Dr X being aware that his patient has a fondness for a shoplifter member of Footsteps who has a Jew-hating blog, and Dr X is not reacting at all. I cant divulge my source, but someone who was in on a session told me what the therapist said during sessions. For instance- he's ok with extramarital s-x between two consenting adults (one of them a recent OTD female, the other a shoplifter), and Dr X is getting recommendations (clients) from a Rabbi.
 
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Ineedspace
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I hear you, and I hear that your anxious and concerned. Sometimes people learn the hard way and if your relative is choosing to be with a shoplifter he's gonna have to deal with the consequences. Are you currently working with a therapist? My suggestion to you is that you should work your worries and your feelings through with a professional. Do you think you can be that nice to yourself?
 
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hugs
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9/27/11 10:29 PM
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I think that Dr X might not have reacted to the extra marital issues since he might think that this is not the most major issue right now to work on or she might not be receptive to totally stopping so maybe he needs to discuss it in a roundabout way thatll take some time to come about. If so many rabbanim are reccommending him, I can't imagine that he is such a "horrible" dr. I mean rabbanim aren't GD so they could make mistakes but I can't imagine they wouldn't have been notified of this issue b4 now if others were having the same problems with Dr X.
 
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mouse
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I don't know if it's a comfort, but sometimes things (especially religiously and psychologically) get worse (sometimes a lot worse) before they get better. It may be hard to believe things can get better, especially in your situation, but it can. Hang in there.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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channafofanna
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its always the darkest right before the dawn.....
 
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NEEDADVICE
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The more feedback I get about this psychologist, the more shocked and disgusted I get. He had an hour conversation with a third party about our relative and never asked the patient for permission (our relative is clueless about this conversation). At the same time, the family asked him about something and he said it's unethical to discuss a patient without consent.
 
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frumsw
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11/8/11 9:40 AM
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Is it possible that the client signed a consent form for the dr. to speak to the other person and not to the family? mayle to be take your concerns to the Rav/Rabbanim who refers people to him and/or to ECHO to get some perspective.


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frumsw
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11/8/11 9:41 AM
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sorry, I meant Relief.


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NEEDADVICE
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11/8/11 1:18 PM
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No way. The psychologist spoke to someone who the client never heard of and still doesnt know.

I did speak to Relief. The person in charge at Relief, told me that this psychologist, whose initials are NC, is a "nice guy", but would never have recommended him in a case like this (involving frumkeit issues), despite the psychologist's ties to Rabbonim. The psychologist goes to Shiurim to get recommendations fron Rabbonim, and works on Rosh Hashana. Psychologist is a fake phony fraud.

Unfortunately, we got the name from a friend who said they heard the psychologist is "sensitive" to the orthodox community. What a joke! In a session, the therapist said hes ok with extramarital s-x, as long as it involves two consenting adults. Very "sensitive" to the orthodox community!!!!
 
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frumsw
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Can someone persuade the client to go for a "second opinion" and then get her to stay with the second one? The one who is paying for this really has the power so if it's the client herself, nobody can really do much about it.


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Dr. Lynn, Psy.D.
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11/12/11 11:34 PM
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I agree w/frum sw. Just as in other fields, there are good practitioners and bad ones in the "mental health" business. Likewise, when speaking about someone not present, there is also the possibility for misinformation and events/statements taken out of context. Perhaps you can get permission from your relative to discuss these concerns with the dr directly?
a lynn
 
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mouse
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Why is it so important to you to mention the therapist's initials. I think your yetzer harah is trying to make a logical argument that it's ok to badmouth someone who is bad. Have you considered even initials are going to possibly give away who it is????? I'm frustrated with you obstinance in accepting advice or help from others. You seem to think you should be G-d and control everything that everyone does. Take a step back. If you don't like it, then don't accept it into your life but to badmouth someone by even using their initials on here....I can't say how wrong that is. It just is WRONG.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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mouse
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12/19/11 8:43 AM
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Stop being so "frum" and just be religious to see your evil ways.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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Aba
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12/19/11 2:50 PM
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munkster are talking hushcufikaly or haluchikaly because Hilchos Lashon Harah don't apply to an ayno-Yehudi?


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Edited: 12/19/11 at 2:51 PM by Aba
 
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hugs
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munkster- I do have to agree with you on everything you said but didn't know how to word it well.
Aba- in my opinion even if the Dr isn't Jewish, if there is another patient of his on this forum that uses him this will cause the patient to second guess every decision that was made with this therapist.
Also, I do seem to remember the op saying that the Dr is Jewish which is why she is so bothered by the fact that the Dr is poo poo pooing the things that the patient is doing that the op is bothered by.
 
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mouse
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Jewish or not...I stand by what I say. If not Jewish, think of the way it paints a "frum person" to be??? (Think "chillul Hashem.) However, in this case, the person is Jewish so it is lashon harah. I believe that was mentioned earlier in the thread. If not, I know since I got the poster to take off the full name of the therapist.


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Aba
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>I do seem to remember the op saying that the Dr is Jewish
I just reviewed the thread and I didn't see where he is Jewish if you can point it out I would appreciate it.

>If not Jewish, think of the way it paints a "frum person" to be??? (Think "chillul Hashem.)
I think it paints a frum person as caring about other people and morality in general I'd say kiddush Hashem.

>if there is another patient of his on this forum that uses him this will cause the patient to
>second guess every decision that was made with this therapist.
or it just might save the person from going off or from other patients from starting with him altogether.
so even if he was Jewish it would be l'toelles and not Hashon Harah.

Even if I would agree with you there is a side to the argument that it's wrong to reveal his name I'm convinced it's Hashkofik not Haluchik and it definitely isn't so black and white to brand NEEDADVICE as evil and a Mechllel Shaim Hashem.

Kol Tuv


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"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
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mouse
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Aba, check post on 11/8. I would copy it over but I really can't right now....migraines getting better of me. What is the psychologist doing going to shiurim of Rabbis if he isn't JEWISH????? I know op said it was to gain clients, but if not Jewish that wouldn't really work too well.


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hugs
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Aba- I don't seem to remember reading or writing that she is evil or anything like that.
 
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mouse
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Aba -- Even if it was "l'toelles" you should give the therapist a chance to explain his/her actions. Not doing so results in a one-sided dialogue leaving people to: a. believe that all the op said is true or b. think the op is a bit "off" on the description of the situation or people involved. (Personally, I believe B given the information that was provided from the FIRST post (that originally included Dr. X's full name.) Furthermore, people may begin to wonder if they are seeing "Dr. X" and question the help they are getting. Not a good situation all around if you ask me.


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All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
 
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Aba
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>check post on 11/8...
I happened to have thought he was a non-jew going to shiurim, however, what I missed is "and works on Rosh Hashana" so OK he is Jewish but since he attends shiurim he can't be considered a Tinok Shenishba so being he works on Rosh Hashana he is a mumur and not included Amisecha so again we are back to haskafa not halacha.

>don't seem to remember reading
"your evil ways"

>if you ask me
yes that is your opinion and she has hers and in her eyes he is a fraud and one and all should stay far far away and she has the right to it without being told her ways are evil.



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"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
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mouse
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12/21/11 4:35 AM
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I guess this is where we part opinions....happens at times.


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Aba
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>I guess this is where we part opinions....happens at times
But B"H we can agree to disagree and remain friends.

Kol Tuv.


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"Success is peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to do your best to become the best that you are capable of becoming." - Coach John Wooden
 
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mouse
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YUP.


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