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TOPIC TITLE: shabbos
Created On 7/18/13 8:24 PM
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star
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thanks. had therapy today and cried the whole time. i feel inherently unlikeable. so painful.


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mouse
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I'm so sorry it took so long to respond, star. Asperger's is on a spectrum. My husband falls into the spectrum quite well. He understands feelings and stuff, but at times I wonder if he gets emotional pain. I think he didn't have the same experiences as me and doesn't get why I'm in so much pain, or that I'm in pain, but he knows I'm having a rough time. I don't know if he really needs to understand that. He just needs to know how not to exacerbate the situation and when the situation is going downhill quickly. He senses when I'm having it rough and usually steps in now before it goes way too far. I'm not sure if that answers your question but it's the best I can do at moment. (Just a quick thought, big difference between wrong affect and Asperger's -- though it can be related it can also be a symptom of other issues. For example, often I'm told I seem happy when I'm not. My face may even smiling when I say something quite disturbing.)


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mouse
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OK, I posted a response here and I can't find it .....so here goes again....Asperger's is on a spectrum. So some people are more "disabled" by it than others. My husband is pretty Aspergsy, but still able to do what others with Asperger's can't. It just depends on the skill presented. My husband is able to understand I'm in pain and though he doesn't truly understand the extent most of the time or the cause....he doesn't know everything I've been through. He does know, however, what I find most helpful in making me feel better. He knows how not to exacerbate my depression and knows how to be validating to me. He tries and that's really all I need for him to do. Inappropriate affect can be a symptom of Asperger's but, as I also know it can be a symptom of other problems other than Asperger's. For example, in the past I've been able to say outright that I'm depressed, or even suicidal, with a big smile on my face. Perhaps he was smiling at friend's passing because he's remembering something about him that made him giggle. (I know when I talk of people who have died, I smile if there is a great story attached to the name.)

Nothing is wrong with you. You WILL find the right person some day. Hold on and look for the RIGHT one, not settle because you don't think you're good enough. You have many positive qualities, including being pretty, smart, expressive, and sensitive (yes, that's a plus.) You may happen to be depressed too, but that's like a sideline, not the defining description of you. If you were depressing then I'd say so but I don't see you that way.4

I cannot remember what else I wrote in the previous post, and I did add some to the previous post. I'mm sorry t his is so choppy, I'm trying to remember exactly what I wrote and can't remember. Star, hang in there. Dating is a long, tedious process. When you find the right guy though, it may not be so long and tedious and more like a rush of really fun experiences. (I'm wondering if you need to find a guy who can show you some fun stuff he's interested in....I once went on a date with a guy who brought me to fly kites with him...it was a special date because it was only then that I realized what I had missed in previous dates...fun. He wasn't right for me but it was a learning experience.)


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mouse
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grrr my posts aren't sticking


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star
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thanks munkster. made me feel a little better with your compliments


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mouse
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They are sincere compliments. I don't say anything nice about anyone unless I really feel that way. I agree with toy by the way that it may very well be an issue he has that is preventing him going forward and not have anything to do with you. Don't take it personally (even though it's hard not to.) Being the one to stop a date is often stressful. I think that dating is hard emotionally when it doesn't work out, but I PERSONALLY have discontinued seeing a guy because of myself and not someone else, so it really can be the case.


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star
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9/16/13 7:17 PM
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thank you.
i am feeling so sad and lonely and angry at gd for making me single still.
i had a long and productive day, went shopping,went to my neices bday party, worked....and then came home and theres noone waiting for me.
why gd.......it doesnt seem fair that i had such a hell of a life and dont i deserve this one crucial thing???


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mouse
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Star, I wish I could give you an answer. Just don't lose hope.


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star
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9/16/13 9:39 PM
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ty.....its hard not to.....


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star
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guess where i ended up tonight. was so lonely that i went to an ice cream place, noone was there, so went to a bar and talked to the bartender who has b/cancer and is doing this for extra money for all the bills....so maybe my listening to her could cancel out the badness of being in a bar....its almost a jewish bar though cuz mostly jews come and its not wild at all....still im sad that thats where i ended up. Gd listen to me for once: I WOULD HAVE MUCH RATHER BEEN STAYING HOME COOKING FOR MY HUSBAND OR EVEN ON A DECENT DATE OR EVEN ONE STUPID FRIEND! but no, i dont deserve that apparently. the only interactions i have is with my doc, who i bash the whole time cuz im so ashamed to be there and jealous....then the ppl i work for who are nice but not looking to be my friend......and facebook "friends" but u know the joke....i have 200 friends but no plans for tonight.................SO SAD........WHY???


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gad
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When things appear the darkest, that's when things can suddenly brighten.

I hope that you will soon have good news to tell.
 
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HopefulMommy
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That was so nice of you to talk to the bartender. I'm sure she appreciated a listening ear. Hope things improve soon!
 
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star
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yay i got a job today bh. 3 kids, 12/hr. not sure i can handle it...


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keep climbing
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Is that babysitting?
 
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star
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yes. yt was horrible. this guy that seemes nice started telling me how all the divorced ladies at the house i was staying were overweight so thats why theyre not married and i blew it! i said EXCUSE ME??? and how dare you say that....and he said sorry i guess i hit on a sore spot, like im overwight so its sore. idiot. but i was crying and skipped the meal and everyone noticed it was humiliating. the host came up to comfort me but didnt know what to say except shed help me with shidduchim but shes really busy. then today one girl kept coming to me saying u wanna talk and i was avoiding her so she kept making comments like 'oh i guess ur in a MOOD. so embaressing. another guy there said chabad is not jewish to this bt and she started crying so i told him off also i dont know whats wrong with me. scares me that guys r such jerks. now i dont know where to go for second days. family hurts but also these crowds hurt.


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gad
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9/22/13 3:38 PM
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On Friday everything is hectic, rushing.
Now too, things sometimes seem hectic, out of order etc.

But then comes Shabbos.

Hope to hear good news.



Edited: 9/22/13 at 3:39 PM by gad
 
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star
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huh?


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gad
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In other words, my wishes that you should soon be able to jump over the impasse.
 
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star
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went to therapy and cried the entire time. WHY AM I SO UNLIKEABLE THAT I DONT HAVE ONE FRIEND?????CANT GET ONE DECENT DATE????


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gad
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May you find your basherte very soon.
 
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star
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thanks. just went to imax with some nice guys. i find guys less intimidating then girls. maybe its wrong, but this is where im holding now. they were very respectful and pleasant and for once i felt my presence was wanted. now i have to figure out how to make them want to hang around with me again. i was talking to my doc about not having friends and he said all the people i know here are low life so if i want them to like me id have to lower myself and give them what they want, no need to elaborate. but i dont want to go lower, but im SO SO DESPERATE FOR HUMAN COMPANY!!!!!WHAT DOES G-D WANT FROM ME? TO HIT ROCK BOTTOM SPIRITUALLY AND MAYBE THEN HE'LL SEND MY BASHERT???


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gad
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I remember once hearing a story about a child (who later became a rebbe). his father took him to the mikvah.

The water was very cold, and the child yelled 'oy!' Then his father gave him a towel, and the child wrapped it around and said 'uhhh.'

His father said, "let this be a lesson to you.
A sin is at first 'uhhh.' But later it's 'oy!'
A mitzvah is first 'oy.' But later it's 'uhhh.'

Hashem should help you to achieve what you want deep within yourself, to be close to G-d and to fulfill His will.

Hope to hear good news.
 
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star
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9/24/13 8:32 PM
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my bros getting engaged......so happy for him but so anxious for the lchaim and wedding and pics, gonna have to see my abusive sister...cant face her!!!


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gad
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9/24/13 8:49 PM
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Mazal tov

When we need to interact with abusers, perhaps the following will help.

1. To try to not think about this person at all. If the person comes to mind, to try shifting the thinking to other thoughts.

2. At the chasunah, to try to avoid the person as much as possible. When there is an interaction, to try to be as proper as possible, so as not to insult anyone, and then to move on. If the person insults, to just walk away and move on to other things.

There should be many simchos.
 
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MoMo
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Gad, I'm curious where you got these guidelines from?
 
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gad
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It's based on numerous ideas that I have heard (some from rebbes) and analyzed.
 
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star
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i cant avoid her, i have to pose in the same pictures as her! or else everyone will see theres a family feud.
i really dont think its good to mix up rebbes and psychology. its a very sensitive area and u risk making people more resentful by repeating things from rebbeim that they dont want to hear.


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gad
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I'm just throwing out hats.
If it fits, you can put it on.
If it doesn't fit, you don't have to wear it.

As for the family picture, I don't see how that contradicts what I wrote.
I wrote to try to avoid the person as much as possible.
I also wrote, that when there is an interaction, to try to be proper etc

If you need to be in the picture, then it's not really possible to avoid it without insulting etc
So you can smile, pose for the picture, and then move on
 
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gad
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The main thing is, that you should have many simchos, and we should all merit the ultimate simcha with moshiach, when G-d will redeem us and bring us all true happiness.
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: star
i really dont think its good to mix up rebbes and psychology. its a very sensitive area and u risk making people more resentful by repeating things from rebbeim that they dont want to hear.


I should add the following, which I hope will help to make you feel better about my postings.

Although I bring ideas from Torah and chassidus, I generally do not post indiscriminately.
I try to be very sensitive to people here, and I generally try very hard to post ideas that I feel will be appropriate for their particular situation and mindset.

In other words, I try to write what I feel will be tailor made to that individual, with the goal of trying to convey that I understand them, and, when possible, to suggest an idea that I feel can help them, or at least to express a brocho that G-d should bless them.

Because if we can help someone, and we don't, then we become a cause for their suffering.

That being said, it's important to be open to, and want to learn from, criticism.
So if you can explain what exactly you resented in my post, it can be a good learning experience for the future.
But a blanket statement that it's not good to mix up rebbes and psychology doesn't seem to jive, since everything comes from Torah. And torah has much to say about psychology.

And as for repeating things that people don't want to hear, can you be specific about what words you didn't want to hear, and why.

Wishing you a happy hoshana rabo and a chag kosher visomeach.


Edited: 9/25/13 at 3:56 AM by gad
 
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keep climbing
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Gad, I really appreciate your posts and your taking the time to uplift and support us.

Having said that, I also feel that sometimes quoting Torah or Rebbes can be hurtful.
Dr. Price once wrote that the Torah presumes health. First, we have to be healthy. We are not always in control.
Believe me, we would do anything, and do do our utmost to reach that state. But if we can't get there, it can be very hurtful to be preached at.
I think that speaking from a logical, rational place, you are right.
But our issues stem from our emotions, and logic doesn't reach us there.
Only empathy and support can connect with an emotional issue.

A gutten kvittel!
May we all be zoche to a sweet new year!
 
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star
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well said keepclimbing, thank you. gad , nooone and NOONE here needs criticism. the depression does the trick. so please- try to be more sensitive then u already think you are.


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Cutiestarr
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Edited: 9/25/13 at 12:56 PM by Cutiestarr
 
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gad
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dr price often draws on Torah ideas. (Of course people are exempt under certain health conditions)

I don't agree with the assumption that logic has no place in helping emotions.

But nevertheless, your critiques show that you aren't happy with my approach, (although, keep climbing, you did cushion it nicely with your appreciative words).
Your criticism is well taken
Have a good yom tov
 
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star
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dr price only brings up torah when asked about it, if you notice, like in many threads I asked about yomim tovim and I did so becuz he always puts a positive spin on it. In a way I feel emotionally ok with it, always leninet. I'm sorry to say that your posts do not make me feel the same. You insinuate I'm being a hyprocrite by being critical of you, but you are not one of us, you never ever share your feelings or low points and that bothers me that you assume you can understand.when you cannot, obviously. I don't feel bad being blunt, cuz I'm not worried you will take it to heart like I would.maybe some people do need criticism, ur right.dont mean to fight, just hurt and talking in self defense.


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HopefulMommy
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I think it really depends. Sometimes Torah ideas help, and other times they don't. But I agree with Star that it's easier to hear Torah ideas from people who also share their own struggles. Then you feel that they are sharing what's been helpful to them, as opposed to preaching.

Star, mazel tov on your brother's engagement! And good luck with the wedding! It's not easy.
 
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star
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thanks


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gad
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Originally posted by: keep climbing
Gad, I really appreciate your posts and your taking the time to uplift and support us.

Having said that, I also feel that sometimes quoting Torah or Rebbes can be hurtful.
Dr. Price once wrote that the Torah presumes health. First, we have to be healthy. We are not always in control.
Believe me, we would do anything, and do do our utmost to reach that state. But if we can't get there, it can be very hurtful to be preached at.
I think that speaking from a logical, rational place, you are right.
But our issues stem from our emotions, and logic doesn't reach us there.
Only empathy and support can connect with an emotional issue.

A gutten kvittel!
May we all be zoche to a sweet new year!


I decided to try to answer each critique, and explain how I think the critiques have been helpful, and to try to understand what input (if any) would be appreciated in the future.

Keepclimbing, are you saying that you never want Torah quotes?
Or do you sometimes want the quotes if I think that they fit in context, and are sensitive to the situation?
And if you feel that they don't fit, then you or someone else can tell me.
And are you ok with the quotes that I put in the therapy thread under the good news column and the Torah column?
 
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gad
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Star
"i really dont think its good to mix up rebbes and psychology. its a very sensitive area and u risk making people more resentful by repeating things from rebbeim that they dont want to hear.

"well said keepclimbing, thank you. gad , nooone and NOONE here needs criticism. the depression does the trick. so please- try to be more sensitive then u already think you are.

"dr price only brings up torah when asked about it, if you notice, like in many threads I asked about yomim tovim and I did so becuz he always puts a positive spin on it. In a way I feel emotionally ok with it, always leninet. I'm sorry to say that your posts do not make me feel the same. You insinuate I'm being a hyprocrite by being critical of you, but you are not one of us, you never ever share your feelings or low points and that bothers me that you assume you can understand.when you cannot, obviously. I don't feel bad being blunt, cuz I'm not worried you will take it to heart like I would.maybe some people do need criticism, ur right.dont mean to fight, just hurt and talking in self defence."


I beg to differ. I feel that I do understand what you are going through.
I sometimes offer Torah quotes in the hope that it may help. But I know what people are going through, i understand the pain ch"v, and I know that you can't just shake someone up and down and say straighten up, because inside he's not functioning well.
I know that depression is debilitating, and that we can't just jump up so easily and sing and Dance.

But I also know that sometimes a Torah thought can help give encouragement etc.

You write that I won't take it to heart. But I do. I took it to heart when you all posted your objections, and I analyzed it to see what went wrong, and if it can be improved.

The same questions that I posted to keep climbing, are also addressed to you. If you can please let me know if the Torah thoughts are ever appreciated, and if so, where and when.

Hope to hear good news
 
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gad
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Originally posted by: HopefulMommy
I think it really depends. Sometimes Torah ideas help, and other times they don't. But I agree with Star that it's easier to hear Torah ideas from people who also share their own struggles. Then you feel that they are sharing what's been helpful to them, as opposed to preaching.


But what if the person giving the empathy, advice, and sometimes Torah quotes, hasn't shared his own struggles. Like dr price.
Would you agree that it is possible for someone who didn't share his struggles, to still be able to understand the pain, and to share empathy and even offer appropriate Torah quotes that can be helpful?

I'm not saying that my advice and quotes and comments were always perfect for the situation. But I think that we can agree that sometimes a Torah quote may fit in appropriately, sometimes maybe not too well.

Perhaps to facilitate things, whenever a quote is offered that is resented, the recipient can just indicate with an unhappy face etc. and that can alert the quoter that he's gone too far.
Or you may prefer no quotes at all, except maybe in the therapy column.
Or you may prefer to not have those either.

The main point here, is that I would like to know people's feeling about the different possibilities.

Because after all is said and done, if the quotes aren't wanted at all, I understand, and would respect that, because I want to do what's good for you.

Looking forward to your comments, and again to remember that there is no hard feeling, and that i wish you all a good and sweet and healthy year.

Hope to hear good news
 
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HopefulMommy
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I don't think there is a clear cut answer. Each case is different, and even for the same person, different times and circumstances require different responses. It's a matter of intuition and common sense. And all of us sometimes get it wrong.

Personally, I very much appreciate your Torah insights. But I generally like learning. I don't feel resentful towards Torah or rabbis. Many people do, for understandable reasons.

I think it would be helpful if you share your own struggles, even if they have nothing to do with mental health. It would make you sound more human . I'm actually curious what brought you to FrumSupport, but you don't have to answer if that's too personal.
 
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star
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gad i appreciate your openness to changing. perhaps writing your torah thoughts in the 'torah' thread would be better, so i know not to go there so as not to feel resentful.
actually u will see that i have asked dr p to share and he has,once about his depression and marriage. thats what sets him apart from most docs and t's and i feel grateful to have him every day.


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star
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keep climbing
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I am glad to see you back.
Very few people understand how sensitive and fragile we can be. I guess it's pretty much impossible to avoid hurting us in some way at some time.
But if we feel close enough and trusting enough, we can ovrlook the slight, knowing that the person is really solid all around.
I don't think you are at a point where we feel that way toward you. Firstly, you are pretty new, You don't have a MI, and you share nothing about yourself...

When we are hurt because of a Torah quote, it's doubly painful. Once I had an Ahavas Yisroel group in my house, and the speaker said that depression comes from the yetzer harah. I was sooo hurt, and in my house.....Most probably there is a difference in interpretation and all, but hearing such thoughts can really make you depressed.....

I still think you should continue to support and uplift us. But do so with a prayer on your lips that you will be successful.
Hatzlacha!
 
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HopefulMommy
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10/7/13 8:40 PM
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Gad is not new. He's been here longer than me, which is at least eight years. And he's very learned and insightful, and truly means well. It's just hard to communicate properly online sometimes, when you can't see facial expressions or hear tone of voice.
 
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HopefulMommy
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10/7/13 8:52 PM
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It is frustrating, to say the least, when speakers say that depression comes from the yetzer hara. But I find that when hard-pressed, they will admit that they are not talking about clinical depression, but about the colloquial "depressed," as in, "I read such a depressing book."
 
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gad
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10/8/13 2:18 AM
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Ok, maybe I can play it by ear, and to try to be extremely careful.

Star, thanks for the link to dr. Price. You're right, he did talk a bit (albeit a very little bit) about himself. It was very interesting.

Rabbi dr twersky in his book "getting up when you're down" in the chapter "where does religion fit in?" discusses the inter lapping of the two.
Hopeful mommy has a good point. Depression means being down, but it can be for different reasons.

To tell someone with clinical depression that it's because of his yetzer horo, is like telling someone with OCD that it's because of his yetzer horo. Or like telling someone who is paralyzed ch"v that he's that way because he's lazy.

Nevertheless, as rabbi twersky explains, religion can help.

Because people are psychologically very complex. And things are interconnected.

So you can't tell someone with clinical depression that it's because of the yetzer horo, but you can suggest (when appropriate) that strengthening emunah and bitochon can help. Or checking the tefilin or mezuzos may help.
 
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wishtobehappy
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10/8/13 9:16 AM
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Gad, I'm really touched by your desire to help out others, despite all the criticism. I, personally, would probably have been hurt by now, and given up, instead of trying to perfect my techniques.
 
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star
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10/8/13 10:07 AM
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i beg to differ. see where i asked dr price the role of emuna in battling depression.


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there is light at the end of the tunnel
 
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gad
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10/8/13 3:36 PM
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Wish to be happy, thanks

Star, can you post the link for that discussion? Thanks
 
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